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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0001127Dwarf FortressWorld Generation -- Generalpublic2010-04-13 22:592017-10-11 09:37
ReporterTenyn42 
Assigned To 
PrioritylowSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusnewResolutionopen 
PlatformPCOSWindowsOS Version7
Product Version0.31.03 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0001127: Worldgen without caverns does not allow embark with seeds/alcohol
DescriptionCreated a world with the [CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:0].

When embarking, I found I could not purchase any seeds or alcohol.
Steps To ReproduceBelow are the worldgen parameters for a sample world without caverns, provided for easy reproduction:
[WORLD_GEN]
    [TITLE:NO CAVERNS]
    [SEED:3413653283]
    [HISTORY_SEED:1534942095]
    [NAME_SEED:3439071062]
    [CREATURE_SEED:337618384]
    [DIM:257:257]
    [EMBARK_POINTS:5000]
    [END_YEAR:10]
    [BEAST_END_YEAR:5:80]
    [REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
    [CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
    [ELEVATION:1:400:3200:3200]
    [RAINFALL:0:100:100:100]
    [TEMPERATURE:25:75:100:100]
    [DRAINAGE:0:100:100:100]
    [VOLCANISM:0:100:100:100]
    [SAVAGERY:0:100:100:100]
    [ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
    [RAIN_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
    [DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
    [TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
    [SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
    [VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
    [TITAN_NUMBER:15]
    [TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:80:0:100000]
    [DEMON_NUMBER:15]
    [GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:100:1000:2000]
    [EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:100:1000:2000]
    [PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:20]
    [PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:1]
    [COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
    [VOLCANO_MIN:15]
    [REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
    [REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
    [REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
    [REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
    [REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
    [REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
    [REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
    [REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
    [REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
    [EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:0]
    [RIVER_MINS:800:400]
    [PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:0]
    [OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
    [SUBREGION_MAX:5000]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:0]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:0]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:100]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:0]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:100]
    [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
    [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:0]
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:15]
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:5]
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:1]
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:1]
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:5]
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:5]
    [LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:15]
    [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:5]
    [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:5]
    [CAVE_MAX_SIZE:25]
    [MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:25]
    [NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:25]
    [ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:1]
    [SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
    [TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:10]
    [TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:100000]
    [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
    [ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
    [RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
    [DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
    [SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
    [VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]
Additional InformationI understand that, in a world without caverns, things like plump helmets, cave wheat, etc. would not evolve. Dwarves would have to either 1) breed selectively to create them or 2) use surface plants.

Option 1 means that I should be able to embark with underground seeds/plants/alcohol, regardless of the existence of caverns.

Option 2 means I should be able to embark with surface-farmable seeds/plants/alcohol instead, since this is what the dwarf civ in this world is used to.

Not having any farmable crops available until after embark (when I can gather from the wilderness) makes things much harder, as dwarves work slower without alcohol.
TagsIntentional/Expected?, world without caverns
Relationships
related to 0001311resolved Toady One World has caverns but one of the several dwarven civs doesn't have access to seeds/plants/drinks 
has duplicate 0001233closed Footkerchief Underground plants, fish, seeds unavailable 
has duplicate 0001611closed Logical2u It is possible to create a world where seeds, drinks, and rope are impossible to embark with 
has duplicate 0002457resolved Footkerchief impossible to take drinks, seeds, plants, or fish during embark preparation on custom world gen map 
has duplicate 0004005resolved Footkerchief Game no longer provides seeds either on embark or caravan 
related to 0001449acknowledged Dwarfu Dwarven milk/cheese is not available on embark or for trade 
related to 0004592new  Embark wagon/barrels ignore world; got black-cap barrels without caverns 
related to 0004924new  Preferences are ignoring world; dwarf likes goblin-cap wood in world without caverns 
related to 0001553resolved Footkerchief Aluminum not available to all dwarven civs 
related to 0003958new  Some dwarf civilizations have access to steel without access to iron 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2010-04-13 22:59Tenyn42New Issue
2010-04-13 23:32Tenyn42Issue Monitored: Tenyn42
2010-04-13 23:47GReadNote Added: 0003417
2010-04-14 00:01Tenyn42Note Added: 0003419
2010-04-16 08:54FootkerchiefRelationship addedhas duplicate 0001233
2010-04-16 23:37Khym ChanurIssue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2010-04-16 23:40CrytenNote Added: 0003948
2010-04-17 00:08CrytenIssue Monitored: Cryten
2010-04-18 03:29CrytenIssue End Monitor: Cryten
2010-04-18 18:22FootkerchiefRelationship addedparent of 0001311
2010-04-23 00:10FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0001449
2010-04-26 17:41FootkerchiefTag Attached: Intentional?
2010-04-28 11:39Logical2uRelationship addedhas duplicate 0001611
2010-06-24 06:01FootkerchiefRelationship addedhas duplicate 0002457
2010-07-12 12:03FootkerchiefTag RenamedIntentional? => Intentional/Expected?
2010-09-20 03:28LurkersANote Added: 0012835
2011-08-12 20:45deathc4Issue Monitored: deathc4
2011-08-13 10:40TehsapperNote Added: 0018499
2012-01-19 10:23FootkerchiefRelationship replacedrelated to 0001311
2012-01-19 10:23FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004005
2012-02-20 00:10KogutTag Attached: world without caverns
2012-02-20 08:18FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004592
2012-02-20 08:18FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004924
2012-02-23 19:00FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0001553
2012-02-23 19:00FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0003958
2012-03-28 08:00FootkerchiefRelationship replacedhas duplicate 0004005
2012-03-28 08:00FootkerchiefIssue Monitored: DoctorZuber
2012-03-28 08:00FootkerchiefIssue Monitored: Hieronymous Alloy
2012-03-28 08:00FootkerchiefIssue Monitored: Inglonias
2017-10-11 09:37FantasticDorfNote Added: 0036777
2018-04-13 12:09HuntthetrollIssue Monitored: Huntthetroll

Notes
(0003417)
GRead   
2010-04-13 23:47   
The additional information segment there looks more like a suggestion than a bug report. You may want to consider posting it to the suggestions forum, assuming it hasn't already been suggested. It looks like a good one that fits well with the procedurally generated nature of DF.

As for the bug report itself, I'm not sure if this is working as intended or not. On the one hand, dwarfs should always be able to embark with food, booze and seeds, for simple playability's sake. On the other hand, Civs only have access to resources that are located within their boundaries. Turning off caverns leaves dwarven civs without access to underground plants, so it is 'working as designed' that they should not have access to them or their products, but probably not working as intended.
(0003419)
Tenyn42   
2010-04-14 00:01   
On a related note, further testing indicates that I can generate worlds with some (apparently random) underground plant types not available, just by altering the values of cavern openness and passage density slightly.

To create a world with no plump helmets, take the above worldgen parameters and make the following changes:
        [SEED:1929593645]
    [HISTORY_SEED:3706604371]
    [NAME_SEED:1942682520]
    [CREATURE_SEED:193381517]
        ...
    [CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:1]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:60]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:20]

To create a world without sweet pods:
    [SEED:630658727]
    [HISTORY_SEED:2957172350]
    [NAME_SEED:649942673]
    [CREATURE_SEED:2493631520]
        ...
    [CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:1]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:60]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:70]
    [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:80]

I include the seeds because one of them must determine which plants get discovered by the civilization.
(0003948)
Cryten   
2010-04-16 23:40   
I suspect this has to do with the cause of 0000017 . It seems theres alot of options disapering when custom embarks are created.
(0012835)
LurkersA   
2010-09-20 03:28   
I have also come across this bug.

If this is intentional, would it be do-able to have a pop-up on world gen, warning that no underground plants will be available if cavern count is zero? Similar to how the aquifer warning pops up before embark?

If this isn't intentional, well, ignore me.
(0018499)
Tehsapper   
2011-08-13 10:40   
I have encountered that "bug" too. I don't think it's a bug, because these plants are underground, which means there should be some caves in start of world's generation or else there is no place for them to spawn and grow. And so if there is no caves, then there is no underground plants exist. And so no dwarf booze for you.

And I agree, the game should inform the player of non-existing underground plants then.
(0036777)
FantasticDorf   
2017-10-11 09:37   
Dwarves are reliant on foraging (it is actually unknown what quantity or if they are growing plants successfully themselves)underground plants in order to produce the products to import to you.

Like numerous people above have said, without these plants or if access is denied to a means of foraging for them, they can't sell them you or embark with them.

Ratios of herbalistically harvested to farm-grown plants is unknown.

If this was a dwarf only world, you would likely be greeted with a message explained in this report 0006281 complaining of being unable to assign farmers to crops and looping world generation upon deleting all the underground plants and stripping them of their [OUTDOOR_GARDEN] plants