Dwarf Fortress Bug Tracker - Dwarf Fortress
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0003392Dwarf FortressCreaturespublic2010-10-08 20:402014-08-13 12:19
ReporterQuietust 
Assigned ToFootkerchief 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusconfirmedResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version0.31.16 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0003392: Trade capacities are way too high
DescriptionAll of the TRADE_CAPACITY values for the various pack animals are the same as they were back in 0.28.181.40d, prior to the weight unit change: donkeys can carry 1,500kg, mules, horses, and muskoxen can carry 2,000kg, camels can carry as much as 3,000kg worth of goods, and wagons can carry a mind-boggling 15,000kg.

In my current fortress, when the Dwarven caravan arrived, a quick check confirmed that the first horse was indeed carrying just over 1,500kg of goods, easily five times as much as any real horse should be able to carry.

The trade capacity values need to be significantly reduced in order for them to make any sense whatsoever; however, bug 0000197 must be fixed first so that human and dwarven caravans regain the ability to bring the wagons necessary to carry reasonable amounts of trade goods.
Steps To Reproduce
Additional InformationAs a side effect, this will likely prevent Elven traders from bringing large animals for trade, especially elephants (which is probably okay, since it's downright ridiculous anyways).
TagsNo tags attached.
Relationships
related to 0000325resolved Toady One Elves bring hundreds/thousands of items when trading, due to warthogs lacking TRADE_CAPACITY tag 
related to 0000197resolved Toady One No wagons in trader/merchant caravans 
related to 0005351resolved Toady One Wagons don't unload fast enough to allow trading, may need NO_THOUGHT_CENTER_FOR_MOVEMENT 
related to 0001024new  Elves continuously emptying and filling their pack animals at the trade depot 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2010-10-08 20:40QuietustNew Issue
2010-10-09 10:48Jiri PetruNote Added: 0013279
2010-10-09 19:18burlingkNote Added: 0013287
2010-10-09 19:19burlingkIssue Monitored: burlingk
2010-10-13 11:17QuietustNote Added: 0013349
2010-10-13 12:08al103Note Added: 0013350
2010-11-16 13:38FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0000325
2010-11-16 13:38FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0000197
2012-01-01 13:04QuietustNote Added: 0019273
2012-01-01 13:06QuietustNote Edited: 0019273bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0019273#r7196
2012-02-19 17:34QuietustNote Added: 0020199
2012-02-20 00:02KogutNote Added: 0020236
2012-02-20 00:03KogutNote Edited: 0020236bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0020236#r7565
2012-02-20 00:03KogutNote Edited: 0020236bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0020236#r7566
2012-02-20 00:04KogutNote Edited: 0020236bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0020236#r7567
2012-02-21 06:38FootkerchiefRelationship addedhas duplicate 0005351
2012-02-26 10:39FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0001024
2012-04-02 04:35KogutNote Added: 0022015
2012-04-23 06:57FootkerchiefRelationship replacedrelated to 0005351
2014-08-13 12:15FootkerchiefNote Added: 0028966
2014-08-13 12:15FootkerchiefAssigned To => Footkerchief
2014-08-13 12:15FootkerchiefStatusnew => needs feedback
2014-08-13 12:18QuietustNote Added: 0028968
2014-08-13 12:18QuietustStatusneeds feedback => assigned
2014-08-13 12:19FootkerchiefStatusassigned => confirmed

Notes
(0013279)
Jiri Petru   
2010-10-09 10:48   
Well, tamed animals could walk along the caravan instead of being traded in cages. That way we could still get elephants.
(0013287)
burlingk   
2010-10-09 19:18   
I have not played .16 yet, but I know that 31.x so far has not had wagons. I just assumed that the animals carrying more was to compensate for this fact.
(0013349)
Quietust   
2010-10-13 11:17   
According to Toady, wagons are supposed to be showing up - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62202.msg1426260#msg1426260 [^]
(0013350)
al103   
2010-10-13 12:08   
He answered about was it bug or not I think, so they supposed to show up, but because of bug they do not.
(0019273)
Quietust   
2012-01-01 13:04   
(edited on: 2012-01-01 13:06)
After using some memory hacking to bring wagons back, another issue has become apparent: the WOOD tissue does not have any of the necessary properties (such as MUSCULAR, FUNCTIONAL, STRUCTURAL, etc.) as is the case with other inorganic creatures such as iron men, bronze colossuses, etc.; as a result, wagons move rather slowly (about as slow as pack animals). The creature itself also lacks [NO_THOUGHT_CENTER_FOR_MOVEMENT], which may also be part of the problem.
(0020199)
Quietust   
2012-02-19 17:34   
Now that wagons are back, this is somewhat more of an issue - wagons can carry exactly way too much stuff, and any caravan that arrives with wagons will always depart with its pack animals carrying nothing at all.
(0020236)
Kogut   
2012-02-20 00:02   
(edited on: 2012-02-20 00:04)
@realism

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ZDsHEdDncLkJ:his.library.nenu.edu.cn/upload/soft/haopdf/78/21939232.pdf+wagon+medieval+capacity&hl=pl&gl=pl&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh-wfGH32pWO6OY4EmavNinZ09YQ50tgY0QyHX27my5g7Z--n7AeplQNzaO1adUrtYgUD5KtzD9d_1NZBHIZnSHaZntUbIulds6ZapdwoCcLvgLARTCT0yNKj2Hj-EwMHy9qfhO&sig=AHIEtbQZFdPXwMXwm4YuJxOlGHHaVwOCbg [^]

The carrying capacity of a cart remains a difficult question. A.C. Leighton, Transport and Communication in Early Medieval Europe, AD 500–1100 (New York, 1972), p. 72, gives the figure of 1000 pounds for the carrying capacity of a two-wheeled Roman vehicle. M. Girault, Attelages et charrois au Moyen-Age (Paris, 1992), p. 138, sees pulling capacity of medieval carts limited to 500 kilograms, or 1100 pounds. If Girault is correct, then the carts in use by the English government during Edward’s reign could carry approximately half a ton, and the wagons as well as ox-drawn carts (palustra) could carry about a ton. Masschaele, ‘Transport Costs’, pp. 268–69, identifies several texts from the fourteenth century in which vehicles drawn by four horses are reported to have transported 4 quarters, or 2000 pounds, of supplies. It is not clear from Masschaele’s description of the texts he cites whether these vehicles are two-wheeled carettae or four-wheeled cartae.
(0022015)
Kogut   
2012-04-02 04:35   
Still in 34.07
(0028966)
Footkerchief   
2014-08-13 12:15   
Is this bug still present in 0.40.08+?
(0028968)
Quietust   
2014-08-13 12:18   
Very likely - wagons still have [TRADE_CAPACITY:15000], and it's almost guaranteed that said value is still being interpreted the same way.