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0008001Dwarf FortressAdventure Mode -- Sitespublic2014-08-14 07:552020-05-10 23:15
chaosvolt 
Footkerchief 
normaltweakalways
confirmedopen 
0.40.08 
 
0008001: Elf/dwarf sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations)
Unlike human hamlets and towns, elven and dwarven site governments lack the direct equivalent to lords/ladies. When asking about that site's local government, a group will be mentioned without specifying who's in charge of that group. This means that laying claim to the site has no effect, as there isn't an essential person to kill or drive off to prompt the "you are now in control" message.

As with human law-givers, dwarven monarchs and elven queens will be mentioned if you about the rulers in a site they live in, but they are separate from the abstract group ruling the site itself.
1. Start an dwarf or elf adventurer.
2. Ask about the local ruler.
Prior experiments in replicating the effects of generated lords and law-givers (via reading the histories of multiple worlds, examining the string dump, and looking into what position tokens do) led me to narrow down the apparent cause of this.

The apparent requirements are a combination of the tokens [SITE], [RULES_FROM_LOCATION], and [RESPONSIBILITY:LAW_MAKING]. Law-making plus ruling from a location is what makes law-givers, monarchs, and queens noteworthy enough to gain the "seat of power is here" message, but lack any association with a site.

Barons, counts, and dukes aren't even mentioned due to being appointed nobles without the [SITE] token, and don't have the [RULES_FROM_LOCATION] either (that's the mayor's shtick). Mayors have everything except the law-making responsibility, again resulting in them not being considered in charge of the group ruling a site.

Meanwhile elves lack ANY site-bound positions, making all their essential roles tied to the civilization itself.
0.40.08, administrative positions, adventurer mode, claim, conquest, Intentional/Expected?, position
Issue History
2014-08-14 07:55chaosvoltNew Issue
2014-08-14 07:59chaosvoltTag Attached: administrative positions
2014-08-14 07:59chaosvoltTag Attached: adventurer mode
2014-08-14 07:59chaosvoltTag Attached: position
2014-08-14 07:59chaosvoltTag Attached: 0.40.08
2014-08-14 07:59chaosvoltTag Attached: claim
2014-08-14 07:59chaosvoltTag Attached: conquest
2014-08-14 10:28FootkerchiefSummaryElven and dwarven cities cannot be conquered => Elven and dwarven cities cannot be conquered, since they don't have a leader to kill
2014-08-14 10:33dree12Note Added: 0029031
2014-08-14 15:03chaosvoltNote Added: 0029055
2014-08-14 15:48chaosvoltNote Added: 0029058
2014-08-14 16:08chaosvoltNote Edited: 0029058bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0029058#r11149
2014-08-14 16:48FootkerchiefSummaryElven and dwarven cities cannot be conquered, since they don't have a leader to kill => Elven and dwarven cities sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations)
2014-08-14 16:49FootkerchiefSummaryElven and dwarven cities sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations) => Elf/dwarf sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations)
2014-08-14 16:49FootkerchiefTag Attached: Intentional/Expected?
2014-08-14 16:49FootkerchiefNote Added: 0029060
2014-08-15 01:10chaosvoltNote Added: 0029077
2014-08-15 09:55chaosvoltIssue Monitored: chaosvolt
2014-08-15 10:02smjjamesNote Added: 0029097
2014-08-20 10:57chaosvoltIssue End Monitor: chaosvolt
2014-08-20 13:24FootkerchiefAssigned To => Footkerchief
2014-08-20 13:24FootkerchiefStatusnew => confirmed
2014-08-26 10:19chaosvoltNote Added: 0029663
2014-08-26 13:16chaosvoltNote Edited: 0029663bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0029663#r11453
2016-02-11 12:48chaosvoltNote Added: 0034640
2016-02-16 00:55DetrosNote Added: 0034678
2016-03-07 09:52chaosvoltNote Added: 0034801
2016-06-06 14:52WittyNote Added: 0035357
2016-06-07 09:19chaosvoltNote Added: 0035362
2020-01-07 08:50FantasticDorfNote Added: 0039657
2020-01-07 08:53FantasticDorfNote Added: 0039658
2020-01-08 01:18FantasticDorfNote Edited: 0039657bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0039657#r16155
2020-05-10 23:15chaosvoltNote Added: 0040538

Notes
(0029031)
dree12   
2014-08-14 10:33   
Confirmation: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141310 [^]
(0029055)
chaosvolt   
2014-08-14 15:03   
What's odd is, after having mimicked the effects of the human lord's position successfully, I'm having trouble getting the same combination of tokens to work with an elven or dwarven position.
(0029058)
chaosvolt   
2014-08-14 15:48   
(edited on: 2014-08-14 16:08)
Okay, I went and copied the mocked-up lord position as-is into each civ, made sure no standard positions would compete with them, and tested them. Only the human civ allowed me to gain control of a site, so it seems there's something more to this issue, which I think might be tied to how local lords are referred to as ruling from a location in their site of residence.

I'm thinking it might also require the [BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS] token in the entity, as well. Time for some !!SCIENCE!! on this.

EDIT: Confirmed, plus some complications. The fortifications tag, plus a position filling the requirements mentioned earlier, allows conquest. Problem is that that token no longer works with site types other than towns.

(0029060)
Footkerchief   
2014-08-14 16:49   
I'm pretty sure this is intentional (one of many things that was unfinished in this release) but I'll leave it open.
(0029077)
chaosvolt   
2014-08-15 01:10   
While I'm at it, I kinda wish I'd science'd up the issue further before reporting, as now it's a "tweak" bug that in fact can't be tweaked, and might be better re-categorized as minor instead.

I'd also add the requirement of fortifications and towns, and thus the fact the issue can't be fixed without fundamentally altering elven and dwarven flavor, if I could edit the "additional notes" section. ._.
(0029097)
smjjames   
2014-08-15 10:02   
Like Footkerchief said, it's one of those unfinished things. Insurrections making all shops turn into taverns ( 0007764 ) probably should be looked at first.
(0029663)
chaosvolt   
2014-08-26 10:19   
(edited on: 2014-08-26 13:16)
Assigned to...hmm. Not sure what that'll entail. O.o

(0034640)
chaosvolt   
2016-02-11 12:48   
So dare I ask what it means when an issue is self-assigned?

This has been in assigned status for over a year.
(0034678)
Detros   
2016-02-16 00:55   
I see these assignments as who-is-supervising-this-report rather than who-is-working-on-fixing-this-issue as it is used in other projects. When Toady wants to fix some issue he just goes and does so and then assigns it to himself, to mark that given report no more needs close supervision of one of managers. Not assigned reports usually mean not-yet-checked-by-one-of-managers.
(0034801)
chaosvolt   
2016-03-07 09:52   
Ah, I see. That makes sense.
(0035357)
Witty   
2016-06-06 14:52   
It's interesting to note that dark fortress sites do actually have a mead hall like area in the upper parts of the spiral. This area tends to contain the demon master, but I've also found lords/ladies in this area as well. It seems that the demon master suffers from the same problem as monarchs and law-givers in that they only rule over the civ, and not the capital area itself.
(0035362)
chaosvolt   
2016-06-07 09:19   
Do what now? Strange, as I've tested trying to bump off goblin lords in the past.

Has that element of the bug been accidentally fixed then? Interesting.
(0039657)
FantasticDorf   
2020-01-07 08:50   
(edited on: 2020-01-08 01:18)
I can confirm for 44.12 modding a rule from location custom noble with [SITE] will incur the demon-master to share the dark-tower's throne room. [REQUIRES_MARKET],[SITE] and [RULES_FROM_LOCATION] will establish them in each established tower of that civ specifically rather than pits in the evil entity example.

(0039658)
FantasticDorf   
2020-01-07 08:53   
Its a proposed simple solution to the original issue report and they shouldnt step-over one another in authority because of the demon-masters hardcoded monarch position for wider control over nobles or sites under them.

Lack of elves locally rulng may be responsible to incomplete site maps, such as dungeons for holding prisoners (and areas to gather nobles) so Toady didn't fill it in perhaps.
(0040538)
chaosvolt   
2020-05-10 23:15   
That does not address the main issue, actually. I am aware that goblin sites CAN have a power location that permits conquest, and if they generate a lord then at least in some versions they'll be vulnerable to conquest all the same.

The issue that took me a bit of post-OP messing about to realize is that elven and dwarven sites seem to lack any zone they can rule from, IN ADDITION to none of the positions being put together in the right way to count as lords.