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0008334Dwarf FortressAdventure Mode -- Sitespublic2014-09-22 09:012015-05-15 09:23
0008334: Trolls in goblin sites respawning constantly
On my 40.13 generated world, my character has been long lived, after checking in legendsviewer, i found a goblin pit that listed +/- only a hundred of goblins and trolls, one of the first time the population wasn't very high.

So i thought that it was probably thist time a goblin site would be relatively playable and went to investigate.
Despite a noticable performance loss when approaching the towers, it stayed surprisingly playable, i managed to get downstairs from one of the towers and finally found what was a big open cavern populated with a big tons of trolls (and a very few goblins).

I killed everything, it wasn't a challenge unfortunately due to the majority of the trolls having a job never fighting back even if i hit them, and only the no job trolls trying but only if i hit them first at no point any of them attacked me on their own (assuming i didn't put them to unconsciousness on my first attack.)

Once i had cleared that nest of evil, i went back to surface and adventured more.
Then i travelled back to that goblin site as i remembered i didn't much explored the "bedroom" levels of that underground to see if there was something to see there.
And to my surprise, the performance hit was noticable again (when i destroyed all the trolls, performance was back to max again).

I went down, only to see that another huge number of trolls were out of nowhere suddenly in the cavern despite i killed them all ?
Again, i destroyed all those monsters

I left to adventure elsewhere, then went back only to see performance hit and then ... again huge lots of trolls respawned in the cavern.

Considering when i checked legendsviewer originally there was supposed to be +/- a hundred of trolls , that must be a bug because my kill list has much more than a hundred of them.

And then i noticed the bug after re-re-killing all the trolls.

Save is there, just after i killed for the 3rd time all the trolls :
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9770 [^]

After loading, go up the ramps on the south east of the cavern, until you reach a room with 3 doors (the door to the south of that room has a goblin child)
Go inside the room to the west then press Z and sleep for 8 hours.
Once you wake up, press S and go stealth again then back in the cavern.
Notice that humongous amount of trolls out of nowhere again.

Check the kill list (that strangely ceased to list the trolls killed) that is over 400 for "other kills" (where all those trolls should be, only a few named trolls are listed in the "notable kills")
According to LegendsViewer there was +/- 100 trolls inside, while i killed more than 300 of them.
No tags attached.
related to 0007526confirmed Dwarfu Dark towers contain thousands of goblins and trolls, causing lag 
related to 0005106confirmed Footkerchief Bandits/companions respawn/duplicate in their original location 
has duplicate 0007940assigned Footkerchief Strange teleportation when sleeping/waiting in dark tower (and a few other odd things) 
Issue History
2014-09-22 09:01RobsoieNew Issue
2014-09-22 09:50FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0007526
2014-09-22 09:59smjjamesNote Added: 0030315
2014-09-22 12:00smjjamesNote Edited: 0030315bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030315#r11831
2014-09-23 12:17FootkerchiefRelationship addedhas duplicate 0007940
2014-09-23 19:13FootkerchiefIssue Monitored: Mopsy
2014-09-23 19:39smjjamesNote Added: 0030340
2014-09-26 17:04smjjamesNote Added: 0030389
2014-09-26 17:36smjjamesNote Edited: 0030389bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030389#r11874
2014-09-29 10:59RobsoieNote Added: 0030447
2014-09-29 11:01RobsoieNote Edited: 0030447bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030447#r11911
2014-09-29 11:13RobsoieNote Edited: 0030447bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030447#r11912
2014-09-29 11:15RobsoieNote Edited: 0030447bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030447#r11913
2014-10-06 15:54smjjamesNote Added: 0030556
2014-10-09 13:23smjjamesNote Added: 0030585
2014-10-27 19:10FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0005106
2015-01-31 11:05HuntthetrollNote Added: 0032109
2015-05-15 09:23NW_KohakuNote Added: 0032685
2015-05-15 09:24NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0032685bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0032685#r13075
2015-05-15 09:25NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0032685bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0032685#r13076
2015-05-15 09:25NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0032685bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0032685#r13077
2017-08-17 01:08crowbeardIssue Monitored: crowbeard

2014-09-22 09:59   
(edited on: 2014-09-22 12:00)
I've also noticed that things in the pit areas never sleep.

I've noticed the respawning as well, but I haven't studied it in detail like robsoie.

Also, I should note that it's related to 0007940 because the respawning of dead units still happens there.

2014-09-23 19:39   
From 0007940
"Okay, since this report's original problem has disappeared, let's consolidate discussion at 0008334. "

Agreed, that reorganization bug seems to have moved to the vaults. I haven't observed the reorganization happening in dark towers for a couple versions.
2014-09-26 17:04   
(edited on: 2014-09-26 17:36)
Some observations from doing rigorous testing on a regular dark tower (that is, not a dark spire).

The trolls are definetly respawning, both in the pit area and in the tower (again, regular tower made of rock blocks, not slade), I used DFhack exterminate enough times to kill almost 2,000 of them, while the population in legendsviewer says 1550 for trolls.

With the goblins.... something more complex is going on. The goblin population of dark towers are pretty dispersed, so you can't really hit a large number of them at once, but heres my observations and testing. I didn't see any duplicate names in my kill list or among the named goblin corpses.

I've noticed that when I do sleep or wait, some named goblin corpses revert to generic goblin corpses. In fact, the skulls of some named goblins that got killed by trolls which I got so I could check to be sure about duplicates, changed into generic no-name goblin skulls.

Number stats first:
End of worldgen and pre-adventure population.
1979 goblins
1550 trolls

The number of goblins that I killed myself (about 30 for the site pop) and the amount exterminated via DFhack (475 or so) comes out to around 500, roughly. You'd expect the population to go down by roughly that amount (or at least go down by roughly my kill number).

So, I copied the save and retired my adventurer, then exported world info.

After retire on copy save
    1839 goblins
    2847 trolls
    1 dwarf outcast (my adventurer)
    15 goblin outcasts

As you can see, the trolls somehow almost doubled and while the number of goblins did go down, it's not as much as I thought it would be. Which is likely due to because not all of the 116 or so goblins at a time exterminated were historical. So, it's possible that the non-historical goblins are respawning, but I have no way of knowing 100% for sure.

2014-09-29 10:59   
(edited on: 2014-09-29 11:15)
I ran into another respawn bug, this time it's not linked to trolls, as it's on the surface of a goblin sites, and respawning goblins (sometime humans and elves too)

Save is here :
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9818 [^]

Go to the south, follow the river until it enlarge itself a lot, still continue south a bit until you reach the game hickup (when i guess DF load another section of the world). Roughly there :
http://i.imgur.com/WNLWO2z.gif [^]

Once done, you go back from where you came, goblins are there again despite they're supposed to have been killed.
If you want, kill them again, do again the travel back to the river enlarging limit between world sections loading and come back, there will be again goblins there waiting, roughly there :
http://i.imgur.com/Bxxe4jS.gif [^]

Strangely, a couple of goblins (or whatever respawned) seems to know you're there (despite your stealth and out of their sight range) as when you approach, they will break out of their waiting point to run toward you.

2014-10-06 15:54   
Trolls respawning in Dark Pits confirmed for 40.13, just saying.
2014-10-09 13:23   
Here's one in 40.13 of elven NPCs respawning in elven sites. Look at the two elven bowyers above my adventurer, and look at details on their names, now look at the corpses they are standing on.

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9887 [^]

There may be others, but this is just the most obvious one that I can see.

(I'm posting this in both 0005106 and here since I don't know where I should put it)
2015-01-31 11:05   
The bug in which NPCs, particularly trolls, continually respawn has happened to me multiple times in 40.24, as has the bug in which named corpses revert to generic corpses after waiting/sleeping/traveling.
2015-05-15 09:23   
(edited on: 2015-05-15 09:25)
0005106 is a major portion of the problem.

You can see it in action in detail here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105470.0 [^]

Basically, it seems ALL non-historical creatures (that is, generic ones that are procedurally generated in towns) are not saved or otherwise marked as no longer being generic when the player interacts with them. Hence, when you kill them, their CORPSE becomes a saved feature of the map, but their death is not marked, and the generic characters respawn. This also works for recruiting generic soldiers - you can have a whole army of clones.

Presumably, the problem is that trolls keep breeding like animals, but their deaths are never tracked, meaning their populations can go up but never down (at least, not from any reason other than worldgen reasons).

As for the lag 3000 trolls produce, I'd suggest spawning limits. In old games like Secret of Mana on the SNES, there was a limit of 3 enemies on the screen at once, just to keep processor power down. They were still ready to spawn, if you moved back from where they are supposed to spawn after killing an enemy, then moving back to where they would be entering the screen.

Maybe DF could have a limit of something like 300 characters, where generics are simply held in reserve until the old ones are disposed of, and only get spawned again on the edges?