0010132: Plant products require to be edible to be used by civilisations

Notes
(0036252) PatrikLundell (reporter) 2017-02-03 02:22	Human caravans can sell dye plant seeds to you. I don't think I've seen papyrus seeds, but humans usually don't settle in swamps. To test the edibility requirement hypothesis you might want to mod papyrus to grow in plains biomes and be ubiquitous and generate a number of embarks to see if humans bring papyrus seeds. I think it makes sense to sell only things that can be used rather than raw materials that have to be processed to be used. From that perspective, the selling of whole plants only when edible whole (whether raw or cooked) is reasonable. Hauling raw materials is a waste of effort, as it's better to haul the processed, higher value and lower weight products. In the same vein, wool isn't sold in its unprocessed (un-spun) form.

(0036255) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2017-02-03 07:07	Its a little bit difficult pinning down the exact causes, im still prodding the game but adding edibility does have a noticable difference like the examples given. In additional notes i mentioned in asterisks that underground plants work differently in relation to this bug than aboveground crop plants, whether its the token [INDOOR GARDEN/FARMING] or a combination of the two having a effect i don't know. I mentioned earlier using the silver barb example, goblins will sit on a [frequency:100] (double than normal) supply in the relevant biomes but will not actively embark with them when given the correct tags ([OUTDOOR_FARMING]) because it is all 1 plant with no growths other than the seeds. They have herbalists & can be given planters very easily and still ignore the plant. As soon as the plant is set to [EDIBLE_COOKED] gutter cruor & silver dye becomes avaiible for use. (with the correct biome settings) Also in 0010131 that trees with a similar predicament wont be used on embark for wood unless they have a growth. (such as adding a nut to a glumprong, a tree that naturally has no growths.) _______________________________________ It's pretty certain they wont sell you what they can't sell you or embark with themselves personally, i didn't dispute that the redroot products (seeds/dye) can't be sold explicitly but the actual hide root plant isn't edible or cookable itself, only the seeds are. They wont sell you the plant in bulk to turn into redroot dye as to collect the seeds instead through production without growing them. (which you might be in the wrong biome to do so) There are bugs going around like on 0006940 where plants that normally are, aren't cookable or brewable (and part of me thinks this is because the seeds & plant are classified the same, in the example of oats (growth) and oat wheat being admired for the same reasons) because they carry the roughly same tags. You can embark with useless strawberry plants (the bugged stalk kind) with [OUTDOOR_FARMING] because the [GROWTH_HOST:TWIGS & BRANCHES] means the fruit is connected to the plant quite literally unless you specifically bring the fruit by itself. Strawberry raw - http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Strawberry/raw [^] ____________________________________ Eating a plant directly is required for getting a seed out of said plant, and cooking a plant yields seeds. If civilizations are not finding the plants sustainable with implied ways other than eating them to collect seeds they might not be farming them rather than using herbalists to collect more regardless. > Using human trade caravans are not even required if you set the plant (lets say papyrus sedge) biome to [BIOME:ANY_LAND] and use a civ with [OUTDOOR_FARMING], and adding both edible tags to the plant does let you embark with the plant itself, seeds & products (if products via reactions are available)

(0036260) PatrikLundell (reporter) 2017-02-04 02:28	Seeds are retrieved from plants by eating them raw (cooking destroys seeds, though), or through the various plant processing versions (threshing, making paper from papyrus, bag processing, and I think one of the press usages [not seed pressing, obviously]). As an aside, check the "D" section on sliver barb on the wiki http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Sliver_barb [^] ;) I did as you suggested: modded papyrus sedge to ALL_LAND and 100%, and gave dwarves outdoor farming, and papyrus seeds showed up in the embark equipment pre embark. Thus, I think the edibility requirement is a false lead.

(0036261) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2017-02-04 03:52	For seeds maybe, good catch (thanks for confirming) but were none of the products available? We could probably rule out edibility = seeds then, as papyrus is consumed by its product reaction to give seeds, telling us that part is probably working correctly. But they aren't passing on the 'unusuable' plant forward In my instructions in the above note (and instructions for pig-tail plants) i explicitly used [EDIBLE_RAW] (activated the pig tail immediately on "plants") and [EDIBLE_COOKED] on the plant (which individually enabled products on the silver barb) and it appeared within my "Plants" embark index. It does have a noticable impact. Put the tokens between the first material tokens (underneath [MATERIALVALUE:1] and [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT] is a good spot within the structural plant category for the effects i describe. Or just say the report is based that civilisations won't sell/embark with 'useless' plants they don't deem as useful to civilian consumption

(0036262) PatrikLundell (reporter) 2017-02-04 05:19	I see three kinds of dye (dimple cup, red root, emerald) and their seeds, and I also see pig tail and rope reed sheets, but not papyrus (sheets), which seems to confirm there's something not quite right going on. However, I've only generated a single modded world, so it's not exactly conclusive.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2017-02-03 01:28	FantasticDorf	New Issue
2017-02-03 01:29	FantasticDorf	Tag Attached: embark
2017-02-03 01:29	FantasticDorf	Tag Attached: trade
2017-02-03 01:29	FantasticDorf	Tag Attached: civlisations
2017-02-03 01:29	FantasticDorf	Tag Attached: edible
2017-02-03 01:29	FantasticDorf	Tag Attached: plants
2017-02-03 02:22	PatrikLundell	Note Added: 0036252
2017-02-03 07:07	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036255
2017-02-04 02:28	PatrikLundell	Note Added: 0036260
2017-02-04 03:52	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036261
2017-02-04 05:19	PatrikLundell	Note Added: 0036262
2017-03-22 12:41	Button	Issue Monitored: Button

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