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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0001206Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Environmentpublic2010-04-15 10:562018-01-12 01:33
Assigned Tolethosor 
PrioritylowSeveritytrivialReproducibilityhave not tried
PlatformPCOSWindowsOS VersionVista
Product Version0.31.02 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0001206: Collapsing soil into aquifer water caused wall material to change (Bug 1097 from old system)
DescriptionCollapsing a 7x7 chunk of clay loam wall into a fitting hole in the aquifer filled the watery hole with black sand wall, which was the aquifer layer's material.
Tagsaquifer, cave-in, rock, soil
Attached Files

- Relationships
has duplicate 0002552resolvedFootkerchief Cave-in causes sand soil layer to change to loamy sand layer. 
has duplicate 0006359resolvedKnight Otu caved in soil changes soil type 
related to 0010197resolvedLoci Building a construction over the river floor, then deconstructing it, causes the river floor to disappear. 

-  Notes
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-15 11:13

this looks like expected behavior consistent with 40d.
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-04-15 11:48
edited on: 2010-04-15 11:59

Consistent with 40d yes, expected behavior no:

# 001097 □ [cave-ins] ( [^]) soil/stone dropped in a cave-in changes to the soil/stone type of its destination Z level, while maintaining its overall type

In general, there are a crap ton of weird corner cases involving rock/soil transmutation:

# 000719 □ [dwarf mode][buildings] ( [^]) building a farm on soil that was collapsed into a rock layer replaces the soil with rock
# 001058 □ [dwarf mode][jobs][constructions] ( [^]) when a wall placed on stone is deconstructed on the lowest glacier level, you can get soil instead of stone
# 000657 □ [dwarf mode][jobs][designations] (, [^] [^]) harvesting vegetation can make sand turn into stone, and cutting down trees can turn stone into sand
# 001041 □ [dwarf mode][jobs][designations] ( [^]) stairwell in rock on frozen map turned into sand
# 000993 □ [vegetation] ( [^]) tower caps can create soils like red sand underground when they grow up in the mud and are removed
# 000643 □ [dwarf mode][jobs][designations] digging out a stone wall in a soil area causes the stone floor to become soil

And various problems with ice/obsidian terrain in particular:

# 000885 □ [dwarf mode][jobs][constructions] ( [^]) placing a construction over an obsidian floor made on a lake and then removing it left a loam behind
# 000579 □ [cave-ins] ( [^]) there are problems with dropping a chunk of glacier down into a rock level
# 000880 □ [dwarf mode][environment] ( [^]) after ice melted in a channel, the square became "muddy unknown"
# 001007 □ [dwarf mode][environment] ( [^]) autoremoved ice ramps and digging out ice don't treat the floor consistantly
# 001008 □ [dwarf mode][jobs][constructions] ( [^]) dig ice ramp -> build pillar -> remove pillar -> dig out ice ramp leads to a void square
# 000667 □ [dwarf mode][jobs][designations] ( [^]) caving in ice from a pool down one level resulted in open space over rock
# 000988 □ [flows] ( [^]) a wall built over a frozen river did not collapse when the ice melted
# 000886 □ [vegetation] ( [^]) freezing water over vegetation and then melting the ice causes corrupted unnamed vegetation tiles to remain

Quietust (reporter)
2013-03-30 08:55

The problem is likely that the tile's "designation" flags (or whatever Toady calls them, the field that contains flow size, light/subterranean/outside, traffic level, etc.) is not being copied to the destination tile during cave-ins - this would explain both the changing of soil type (the 4-bit "geo layer index" field between the Hidden/Revealed flag and the Light/Dark flag) and becoming an aquifer (the "water table" flag between the Liquid Type field and the Rain flag).
lethosor (manager)
2015-11-29 18:48

Present in 0.40.24 (maybe 0.34.11 as well?): [^]
antoine9298 (reporter)
2018-01-07 11:45

This bug is still present in the version 0.44.03-1, tried twice, on different maps.

Each time I made soil collapse in an aquifer layer of soil, it changed to the new layer’s soil type, inheriting the aquifer tag.

I kinda did it this way, but with a 1-tile-height block of soil [^]

Got a save, unedited by dfhack, if you want.

I also noticed something, so far, I did 3 such cave-in, the first time, from regular soil to a level of aquifer soil, the bug showed up.
Kinda angry, I tiletype-ed out the 2-level-deep aquifer, but, to fake it (because I wanted to do as if dfhack just corrected the bug), I still decided to do the second level, which worked out fine. I see 2 explanations:
1. because this time, it collapsed in a rock layer
2. because this time, it didn’t fell in an aquifer (since it wasn't anymore because dfhack)

The third time, on a different map, the bug showed up again

I want to emphasis that the map was not edited in any way before the bug shown

Sarmatian123 (reporter)
2018-01-07 20:53

Last game, I ended carving fortress in a side of a mountain. Therefore I needed to cave in both under-ground soil for farming and above-ground soil for farming and pastures. Collapsing soil layers time after time through cave in gave me understanding that:

-Caved in soil type will always change to lowest soil type available.
-Digging out caved in soil layer will always give you floor of the current layer, even if layer bellow is also soil. Yeah, got burned there on rock floor once. :)
-Caved in floor of soil layer will remain lowest floor of soil in current layer.
-Randomly normally appearing stones in grown vegetation, will ruin your plans for farms. You need to act quickly or build wall or floor tiles on them, so vegetation can not spawn random stone tiles.
-To ensure no surprise edge cave ins, always build support trigger on a constructed tile under the mass to be caved in.

I guess it is logical for water to flow freely through soil in an aquifer layer. So long it is not clay. Clay it was not, as automatically upon cave in, it became lowest available soil type, through the normal cave in game mechanics.

So... this is not a bug!

It is a legit vanilla DF game mechanics! :P~

It is just like those stone pebbles, when putting farms in... A huge annoyance. Oh well... Just collect clay in kiln and build clay walled hole through aquifer. Live vanilla DF and learn vanilla DF, as usual. :)

Also, I am not a geologist, so I dunno if this works like that in magic-less real life too. :D
antoine9298 (reporter)
2018-01-10 00:24

It *might* be intended behaviour to have it become an aquifer, but I legit doubt that a mined soil tile from a floor before on a rock layer should lay stone, or that, say, red sand should turn into peat.

Also, if it is legit intended behaviour that show up constantly, then how the hell can such methods exist? [^]
And it seems to come from the old system, so it is not new.

I still feel like the way soil/stone is handled is really strange :-/

(Also, what the heck is vegetation spawning rock? Is it that upon dying plants leave rock on their tile? Then how can it spread?)
Sarmatian123 (reporter)
2018-01-10 01:44

The cave in, to get through aquifer should work, if
- you cave in not conducting water rock layer into aquifer sand layer
- you cave in clay layer into aquifer rock layer
Keep in mind that what is used is not the layer you are working on to collapse, but last lowest layer of its kind (rock or soil) above aquifer.

Because layer will change to last of its kind on the way down... you have to be wary.

I always find easiest just to get 3 pumps up in a row. In case one operator stops, your miner won't die. Then channel holes on both sides of those, pump water out *(smooth if rock) and slowly wall around them to create hole through aquifer. Then repeat the process of boring 2nd hole on the same level just beside 1st hole. This way breaching last aquifer layer is not an issue. Just make sure to pump water out of channels that are closest on both bored holes and construct floor space over water filled channels that are away. I usually build my wells there and a hospital. I usually go for 3x3 common hole on one end for both bored holes and with 6 pumps and 6 pump operators you can breach even 9 levels aquifer in one season. Plus 3x3 stairs right through entire aquifer.

(Clay/sand layer will get covered with vegetation fast. Like 1-2 seasons. Tree sprouts die after a time. Other vegetation dies seasonally too. If you look closely, then you will notice after a year or two, that there appeared here and there an infertile rock layer tile instead of sand/clay tile, as it suppose to be. It will block you from putting whole working farm plot. Maybe it is a tree bug, which changes tile from sand to rock? Also look into forest. It suppose to be sand/clay layer there too, but you will find numerous stone tiles in it.)
antoine9298 (reporter)
2018-01-11 21:43

Well, it may be a non-bug then, but if it is intended behaviour, it would be nice to get confirmation and close the bug report. Anyway, it should definitely be mentioned in the wiki, because it is a very important issue.

I still consider the transmutation of soil types as a bug — albeit a likely hard to fix one while being a minor issue.

There may also be a bug report to do (if not done yet) for the saplings which removes soil.

Also, in your previous messages you mentioned using clay collected by workshop to make the plug, but it, shouldn’t it be a constructed wall, which “debuilds” on cave-in?

And again, thanks for the detailed replies, it is really nice to figure what is going on

(oh, and don’t hesitate to correct my English)
PatrikLundell (reporter)
2018-01-12 01:33

The wiki contains a description of the double slit aquifer piercing method.

Last time I tested (0.40.X) soil caved in into an aquifer transmuted the soil type, but did not pick up the aquifer flag, and so provided a safe ring protecting the center from the aquifer despite being of an aquifer supporting material.
Caving in an aquifer tile to the very bottom of the map did not retain the aquifer property of the tile.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2010-04-15 10:56 thepuska New Issue
2010-04-15 11:13 DoctorZuber Note Added: 0003728
2010-04-15 11:48 Footkerchief Note Added: 0003734
2010-04-15 11:49 Footkerchief Summary Collapsing soil into aquifer water caused wall material to change => Collapsing soil into aquifer water caused wall material to change (Bug 1097 from old system)
2010-04-15 11:58 Footkerchief Note Edited: 0003734 View Revisions
2010-04-15 11:59 Footkerchief Note Edited: 0003734 View Revisions
2010-07-03 06:03 Footkerchief Relationship added has duplicate 0002552
2013-03-30 08:55 Quietust Note Added: 0023912
2013-07-23 12:55 Knight Otu Relationship added has duplicate 0006359
2015-11-29 18:48 lethosor Note Added: 0033190
2015-11-29 18:48 lethosor Assigned To => lethosor
2015-11-29 18:48 lethosor Status new => confirmed
2017-04-23 15:15 lethosor Relationship added related to 0010197
2018-01-07 11:45 antoine9298 Note Added: 0037542
2018-01-07 20:53 Sarmatian123 Note Added: 0037550
2018-01-10 00:24 antoine9298 Note Added: 0037577
2018-01-10 00:26 antoine9298 Tag Attached: aquifer
2018-01-10 00:26 antoine9298 Tag Attached: cave-in
2018-01-10 00:26 antoine9298 Tag Attached: soil
2018-01-10 00:27 antoine9298 Tag Attached: rock
2018-01-10 00:33 antoine9298 Issue Monitored: antoine9298
2018-01-10 01:44 Sarmatian123 Note Added: 0037578
2018-01-11 21:43 antoine9298 Note Added: 0037588
2018-01-12 01:33 PatrikLundell Note Added: 0037591
2018-04-16 17:59 Huntthetroll Issue Monitored: Huntthetroll

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