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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0003259Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Combatpublic2010-09-17 01:312017-04-10 11:30
Reporteramlor 
Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityunable to reproduce
StatusnewResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version0.31.13 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0003259: Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack were-citizens, merchants/traders, guards, or liaison
DescriptionI created a squad and ordered to kill caravan guards. After short battle i lost half of my dwarves (approx. 10). When squad members left their equipment i started to get messages "%dwarfname% cannot %dosomething%: interrupted by %anotherdwarfname%". Nobody fought, but there was chaos. When i tried to create a squad and to command to move somewhere, dwarves started to kill each other until there were only two of them left. They lived peacefully, worked normally. But then immigrants arrived and i started to get these messages again. That stopped only when equipped immigrants massacred the native ones.
TagsFixed in 0.40.01?, long-standing bug
Attached Files

- Relationships
related to 0005412new Loyalty cascade from killing yak cow mist zombie 
has duplicate 0003493resolvedLogical2u kill insane donkey = everyone hostile 
has duplicate 0003144resolvedLogical2u Dwarves constantly being interrupted by each other - major job cancel spam 
has duplicate 0002738resolvedLogical2u kill order kill everything on path 
has duplicate 0002913resolvedDwarfu goblin ambush when traders are arriving causes traders to be flagged as hostile 
has duplicate 0003423resolvedDwarfu MIlitary dwarves went 'insane' started killing civilians 
has duplicate 0004606resolvedLogical2u Militia attempting to kill own civilians after killing caravan. 
has duplicate 0004718resolvedDwarfu Axe lord kills everyone in his path, without being tantruming ... 
has duplicate 0004889resolvedKnight Otu Loyalty cascade in 0.31.25 
has duplicate 0004974resolvedLogical2u A massacre of my entire fortress by my military because of a kill order. 
has duplicate 0004977resolvedDwarfu Dwarfs started attacking each other 
has duplicate 0007811assignedFootkerchief Dwarves caught in their own cage traps 
has duplicate 0010149resolvedLoci Loyalty cascade-esque killings within militia after killing a werebeast 
related to 0003685needs feedbackDwarfu Goblin squads invading a fortress will kill their non-goblin squadmates, sparking loyalty cascade 
related to 0000871new Traders/merchants go crazy (berserk/insane/melancholy) if trade depot doesn't exist when they arrive 
related to 0005337new Ordering military to kill were-dwarf results in loyalty cascade 
related to 0005581new Military interrupt civilian jobs as though hostile 
related to 0006051new loyality cascade after killing trained cave crocodile mount from siege. 
related to 0007107confirmedFootkerchief Milita attacking berserk dwarf results in loyalty cascade 
related to 0007349resolvedToady One Seeing berserk dwarf triggers mass combat 
related to 0008220new Kill orders against invader abductee/resettled dwarfs causes a loyalty cascade 
related to 0008250resolvedToady One Military dwarves won't attack goblins 99% of the time, and when they do they cause a loyalty cascade. 
related to 0008775new Caravan guards attack fortress dwarves without provocation? 

-  Notes
(0012742)
kuketski (reporter)
2010-09-17 01:57

Do you have a save?
(0012743)
kregoth1 (reporter)
2010-09-17 01:57

to me that sounds like a pretty NORMAL tantrum spiral. You probably had a bunch of dwarfs get upset over the deaths of the 10 that died from the caravan guards. When they tantrum and killed others it can cause what is known as a tantrum spiral.

http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Tantrum_spiral [^]
(0012745)
amlor (reporter)
2010-09-17 02:23

I know about TS. Nope, nobody was upset and they were not fighting unequipped. And immigrants arrived after approx. one year :) I'll upload the save later today or tomorrow.
(0012751)
Eugenitor (reporter)
2010-09-17 07:02

This is known as a "Loyalty Cascade".
(0012754)
Ducky (reporter)
2010-09-17 08:40

Sounds like the caravan guards were from your parent civilization, and the differing factions the dwarfs belonged you became hostile to each other. When that happens, they start slaughtering each other indiscriminately. I did it once in adventure mode by wrestling a donkey.
(0012763)
amlor (reporter)
2010-09-17 11:51

Oh, so it's not a bug, right?
(0012764)
Eugenitor (reporter)
2010-09-17 12:08

It is a bug, but it's not a *new* bug...
(0013585)
ethanb (reporter)
2010-11-02 08:03
edited on: 2010-12-09 21:02

Don't think I would call it a bug at all - it's proper actor motivation (those people just killed our fellow dwarves! WTF! They must be berserk - get them!)

It could stand to be fleshed out with some player feedback though. Maybe an announcement like "A renegade faction has broken away from The Bolts of Splitting!" would be good.

Then the "traitors" could be explicitly delineated as a new entity, and dwarves could join them or band against them depending on personalities and family/friendship ties. That way if the "revolution" is popular enough your fortress would effectively secede from the parent civ.

(0013643)
Logical2u (manager)
2010-11-06 08:49

Asteroide provided this save :
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=3044 [^]

LoSbaccacc provided this save :
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2716 [^]
(0014484)
Gero (reporter)
2010-12-09 18:02
edited on: 2010-12-09 18:03

I had this happen to me on my second fort. Everyone started killing each other after I ordered my squad to attack the dwarven caravan, and from then on out everyone was acting like all other dwarves (and pets) were the enemy and running away from them, and causing mass job interrupted messages. Some got stuck in loops where they would walk back and forth, attempting one task, stopping, then attempting another before stopping and going back to the first one. Dwarves stopped eating, drinking and stopped responding to nearly all orders in general. Went from 60 some-odd dwarves to 10.

The save before the chaos started: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=3546 [^]

(0014485)
Quietust (reporter)
2010-12-09 21:07
edited on: 2011-01-07 06:02

I just tried doing this with an alternate savefile, and this is what turned up in the dwarf's Thoughts and Preferences page:

"She is a member of The Ashen Lenses. She is a former member of The Hall of Deities. She is an enemy of The Hall of Deities. She is the Militia Commander of The Ashen Lenses."

Another dwarf that was not involved in the attack has the following:

"He is a citizen of The Hall of Deities. He is a member of The Ashen Lenses."

Once he bumped into the above renegade, it changed into:

"He is a citizen of The Hall of Deities. He is a former member of The Ashen Lenses. He is an enemy of The Ashen Lenses."

As I moved more soldiers into the combat area, the following pattern seemed to emerge:

* Attacking a member of the Civilization but an enemy of the Group makes the dwarf an enemy of the Civilization but not an enemy of the Group; since the entire fortress is a member of both the Civilization and the Group, this dwarf becomes hostile to everybody in the fortress (and probably also the caravan)
* Attacking a member of the Group but an enemy of the Civilization makes the dwarf an enemy of the Group but not an enemy of the Civilization; for the same reason as above, this dwarf becomes hostile to everyone in the fortress (but probably not the caravan).

A simple way to solve this would be to make the dwarf become an enemy of both the civilization and the fortress's local group, which would be most easily done by just making the dwarf immediately go Berserk (since it'd have the same outcome). A special message about the dwarf going renegade could also serve as a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatTheHellPlayer [^] moment.

(0014487)
ethanb (reporter)
2010-12-09 21:20
edited on: 2010-12-09 21:32

So in other words, it *almost* perfectly matches what I said above about being completely logical actor motivation...

I'm strongly against the "bug" label on this one, but I think that player feedback should be enhanced a lot to show the tension and secession.

Maybe even a popup dialog when a kill order is given to members of the same entity ("Are you sure you want to rebel against The Hall of Deities? Y/N") And there should be more opportunities for dwarves to join the splinter group (if there aren't already - as I said, not enough player feedback.)

But according to your testing, it sounds like assigning every dwarf in the fort to the militia and telling them to kill the caravan when it arrives should actually cause a civil war (without any means of suing for peace at the moment, but that'll come one day.) Instead of immigrants, the parent civ will send... well, immigrants, but they'll attack on sight as if they were trying to reclaim a splintered town that had fortified itself against its "proper" ruler.

(edit: had some misreading here, removed it)

(0014548)
Gero (reporter)
2010-12-11 23:37
edited on: 2010-12-11 23:38

At some point the bug label could be removed, given proper treatment of the issue, but as it is, it causes your soldiers to kill your dwarves and can cause an entire fortress to be unable to function with no explanation. That's really not fun to experience as a new player. Not even "Fun" fun. Until going rebel has been expanded and allows you to still function, I'd recommend maybe not being allowed to issue kill orders on other dwarves period. Seems to me the quickest and easiest solution until the scenario has been developed more.

(0015932)
Footkerchief (manager)
2011-03-07 16:04

Reminder sent to: amlor, Gero, Quietust

Does this bug still occur in 31.21?
(0015933)
Footkerchief (manager)
2011-03-07 16:06

Styledatol posted a save at 0003423:0013936: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=3427 [^]
troas posted a save at 0002913: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2868 [^]
(0017501)
bobbens (reporter)
2011-04-24 12:14

Just got this when killing a mad friendly donky in 31.25. So yes, it does still happen.
(0018706)
Knight Otu (manager)
2011-09-11 01:40

Zwei posted a save at 0004889
(0023173)
Samthere (reporter)
2012-07-06 06:43

I can confirm that this happened to me in 34.11. Goblin siege animals were captured, tamed, and released. The military was assigned to kill them, and then the military dwarves started massacring dwarves and pets, while civilian dwarves were cancelling jobs due to being interrupted, as if by hostiles.
(0023224)
toybasher (reporter)
2012-07-13 17:35

I can reproduce this in 34.11. I told my army to attack a dwarven caravan, suddenly, everyone started killing eachother. I even had a dwarven baby punch a farmer's skull through his brain, killing him instantly.
(0023348)
nshapter (reporter)
2012-07-24 13:03

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6706 [^]

savegame from 34.11 showing post werecreature military loyalty failure
(0024756)
Quietust (reporter)
2014-05-12 12:45

In case it isn't clear, this is definitely a bug and needs to be fixed - Toady went to significant lengths to fix the "civil war bug" in earlier versions of the game (which is exactly what this bug is), and military attack orders are simply not properly checking whether they will trigger a civil war when followed.
(0028269)
gaite (reporter)
2014-08-04 07:16

A kill order doesn't seem to be necessary - I had dwarves attacking each other immediately after seeing a werebeast citizen transform back. The military was training downstairs before it started and made no move to attack the werebeast.

Save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9277 [^]
(0028275)
4maskwolf (reporter)
2014-08-04 09:11
edited on: 2014-08-04 09:13

Having a creature go berserk by any means other than a failed mood seems to trigger a loyalty cascade upon attacking. Not something I'd post a bug report about, since it only comes up in modding, but I've seen it happen many a time with rage mists.

What I'm talking about is something that I noted in .34.11, haven't tested it since, but it is likely still around.

(0028280)
gaite (reporter)
2014-08-04 09:43

Werebeasts are in the vanilla game, and dwarves can go berserk if they're miserable/very tired, so it affects more than mods.
(0030948)
Frogging101 (reporter)
2014-11-10 10:53
edited on: 2014-11-10 10:54

Still happens in 0.40.15. Look at this image: http://www.fastquake.com/images/df_werearmadillo_lc.png [^]

Here you can see a dwarf transforming into a werebeast, and then being struck down. After the werebeast is struck down, the squad that killed it starts murdering citizens for no apparent reason. 5 dwarves die, and then everything goes back to normal. Bizarre. I am certain that nobody got infected or killed by the werebeast; I checked Legends.

This also happened when I ordered them to kill a berserk dwarf. They kill the berserk dwarf and then turn on the citizenry. That time, 18 died and then the fighting ended.

I'm confused about this because I thought loyalty cascades ended only when one side wiped out the other; in this case they kill some random people and then stop.

(0034833)
Nikinyo (reporter)
2016-03-12 09:53
edited on: 2016-03-12 17:07

Loyalty cascade-like event just happened in my fort. Some visiting humans suddenly became hostile. After that, most tavern patrons get slaughtered and elven caravan gets scared away. Then everything goes quiet. Not exactly sure what caused it, but it must have something to do with goblin army that recently arrived. I don't know if it constitutes as a loyalty cascade or some other bug, so I decided to post it here.

Here is a save file from moments before it all happens:
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=11844 [^]

I'm using PyLNP with DF version 0.42.06.

Edit: I reloaded from backup save a season earlier. Masacare definitely starts soon after goblins arrive, but before my military starts fighting them.

(0034834)
Shonai_Dweller (reporter)
2016-03-12 17:36

Fights between completely different entities are a different issue to regular loyalty cascades. Also they're probably a somewhat opaque 'feature' rather than a bug. Toady mentioned in his own devlog visitors attacking each other due to off-screen disputes. This seems similar (siege starts, thus putting you at war with another civ, relationship to visitors is now different).
(0036403)
grand sage (reporter)
2017-04-10 11:30

I documented this problem in my fort to the forums, check http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163692.msg7418641#msg7418641 [^]

so, its not resolved yet...

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2010-09-17 01:31 amlor New Issue
2010-09-17 01:57 kuketski Note Added: 0012742
2010-09-17 01:57 kregoth1 Note Added: 0012743
2010-09-17 02:23 amlor Note Added: 0012745
2010-09-17 07:02 Eugenitor Note Added: 0012751
2010-09-17 08:40 Ducky Note Added: 0012754
2010-09-17 11:51 amlor Note Added: 0012763
2010-09-17 12:08 Eugenitor Note Added: 0012764
2010-11-01 03:41 Logical2u Relationship added has duplicate 0003493
2010-11-01 03:42 Logical2u Summary Dwarwes kill each other without any reason => 'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards results in in-fighting.
2010-11-02 08:03 ethanb Note Added: 0013585
2010-11-02 08:05 ethanb Note Edited: 0013585 View Revisions
2010-11-02 08:05 ethanb Note Edited: 0013585 View Revisions
2010-11-06 08:45 Logical2u Relationship added has duplicate 0003144
2010-11-06 08:47 Logical2u Relationship added has duplicate 0002738
2010-11-06 08:47 Logical2u Issue Monitored: Dwarfu
2010-11-06 08:49 Logical2u Note Added: 0013643
2010-11-15 13:51 Footkerchief Relationship added has duplicate 0003494
2010-11-15 13:55 Footkerchief Relationship replaced related to 0003494
2010-11-20 06:33 Logical2u Relationship added related to 0003685
2010-11-20 16:42 Khym Chanur Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2010-12-09 18:02 Gero Note Added: 0014484
2010-12-09 18:03 Gero Note Edited: 0014484 View Revisions
2010-12-09 18:06 Gero Issue Monitored: Gero
2010-12-09 21:02 ethanb Note Edited: 0013585 View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:07 Quietust Note Added: 0014485
2010-12-09 21:13 Quietust Note Edited: 0014485 View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:15 Quietust Note Edited: 0014485 View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:20 ethanb Note Added: 0014487
2010-12-09 21:22 ethanb Note Edited: 0014487 View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:27 ethanb Note Edited: 0014487 View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:31 ethanb Note Edited: 0014487 View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:32 ethanb Note Edited: 0014487 View Revisions
2010-12-11 23:37 Gero Note Added: 0014548
2010-12-11 23:38 Gero Note Edited: 0014548 View Revisions
2011-01-07 06:02 Quietust Note Edited: 0014485 View Revisions
2011-01-08 23:07 Dwarfu Relationship added has duplicate 0002913
2011-03-05 07:30 Dwarfu Relationship added has duplicate 0003423
2011-03-07 16:04 Footkerchief Issue Monitored: Quietust
2011-03-07 16:04 Footkerchief Note Added: 0015932
2011-03-07 16:04 Footkerchief Tag Attached: AWAITING UPDATE
2011-03-07 16:06 Footkerchief Note Added: 0015933
2011-03-09 18:14 Quietust Issue End Monitor: Quietust
2011-03-20 08:27 Footkerchief Sticky Issue No => Yes
2011-03-20 08:27 Footkerchief Tag Detached: AWAITING UPDATE
2011-04-24 12:13 bobbens Issue Monitored: bobbens
2011-04-24 12:14 bobbens Note Added: 0017501
2011-05-03 04:40 Logical2u Relationship added has duplicate 0004606
2011-06-28 11:36 Dwarfu Relationship added has duplicate 0004718
2011-09-11 01:39 Knight Otu Relationship added has duplicate 0004889
2011-09-11 01:40 Knight Otu Note Added: 0018706
2011-09-12 03:56 zwei Issue Monitored: zwei
2011-09-25 09:15 Cryten Issue Monitored: Cryten
2011-12-04 10:52 Logical2u Relationship added has duplicate 0004974
2011-12-04 10:53 Logical2u Summary 'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards results in in-fighting. => 'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards or liaison results in in-fighting.
2011-12-08 11:03 Dwarfu Relationship added has duplicate 0004977
2012-02-26 07:52 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0000871
2012-02-26 07:53 Footkerchief Summary 'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards or liaison results in in-fighting. => Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack merchants/traders, guards, or liaison
2012-02-26 07:54 Footkerchief Relationship deleted related to 0003494
2012-02-26 14:41 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0005337
2012-03-08 15:32 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0005581
2012-05-22 17:00 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0005412
2012-05-28 08:58 Logical2u Relationship added parent of 0005962
2012-05-28 11:28 Footkerchief Relationship deleted parent of 0005962
2012-05-28 11:42 Footkerchief Summary Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack merchants/traders, guards, or liaison => Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack were-citizens, merchants/traders, guards, or liaison
2012-06-24 09:12 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0006051
2012-07-06 06:43 Samthere Note Added: 0023173
2012-07-13 17:35 toybasher Note Added: 0023224
2012-07-24 13:03 nshapter Note Added: 0023348
2013-12-29 10:51 Footkerchief Tag Attached: Fixed in 0.34.12?
2014-05-12 12:45 Quietust Note Added: 0024756
2014-07-07 22:23 Footkerchief Tag Renamed Fixed in 0.34.12? => Fixed in 0.40.01?
2014-07-11 20:26 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0007107
2014-07-15 15:14 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0007349
2014-08-03 10:47 Footkerchief Relationship added has duplicate 0007811
2014-08-04 04:06 Steb Issue Monitored: Steb
2014-08-04 07:16 gaite Note Added: 0028269
2014-08-04 09:08 4maskwolf Issue Monitored: 4maskwolf
2014-08-04 09:11 4maskwolf Note Added: 0028275
2014-08-04 09:13 4maskwolf Note Edited: 0028275 View Revisions
2014-08-04 09:43 gaite Note Added: 0028280
2014-09-02 04:51 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0008220
2014-09-28 06:52 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0008250
2014-11-10 10:53 Frogging101 Note Added: 0030948
2014-11-10 10:54 Frogging101 Note Edited: 0030948 View Revisions
2015-01-28 15:30 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0008775
2016-03-12 09:23 Nikinyo Issue Monitored: Nikinyo
2016-03-12 09:23 Nikinyo Issue End Monitor: Nikinyo
2016-03-12 09:53 Nikinyo Note Added: 0034833
2016-03-12 09:53 Nikinyo Note Edited: 0034833 View Revisions
2016-03-12 10:06 sv-esk Issue Monitored: sv-esk
2016-03-12 17:07 Nikinyo Note Edited: 0034833 View Revisions
2016-03-12 17:36 Shonai_Dweller Note Added: 0034834
2016-03-26 11:47 chaosvolt Tag Attached: long-standing bug
2017-02-25 12:16 Loci Relationship added has duplicate 0010149
2017-04-10 11:30 grand sage Note Added: 0036403


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