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0002780Dwarf FortressAnimal Populationspublic2010-07-21 20:472016-11-01 09:01
normalminorhave not tried
0002780: Pond/pool populations (e.g. pond turtles) do not replenish, gradually become extinct
Since turtles were my only source of shells, which are ever so important for moods, I am keenly feeling their absence after a few years. I went ahead and modded my world so that hoofs and horns can be used also for shells, (which is actually very cool btw, its awesome to have an artifact decorated with Elk Bird horn.)

However, my ponds were filled with turtles early on, and I accumulated many shells that unfortunately rotted away. It seems like fish populations are regenerating, but turtles are not among those, and since I found that odd I decided to report it.

Save Included
related to 0002015resolved Toady One Fishing in a river still reports no fish 
related to 0005703resolved Toady One Underground lake, despite having fish, is always reported as "there is nothing to catch" 
related to 0004500new  Tropical Lakes always empty; Murky Ponds odd 
Issue History
2010-07-21 20:47cephaloNew Issue
2010-07-21 20:51cephaloNote Added: 0010802
2010-07-21 21:25FootkerchiefRelationship addedchild of 0002015
2010-07-22 01:51NimrodNote Added: 0010806
2010-07-22 05:23cephaloNote Added: 0010809
2010-08-03 15:20KumquatNote Added: 0011462
2010-08-03 18:41QuietustNote Added: 0011466
2010-08-04 11:56hyndisNote Added: 0011498
2010-08-11 08:40Taranli MarenIssue Monitored: Taranli Maren
2010-11-10 22:19Khym ChanurIssue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2011-03-19 16:53Toady OneRelationship replacedrelated to 0002015
2011-03-19 18:04FootkerchiefTag Attached: Fixed in 0.31.22?
2011-03-19 18:08rpetigerNote Added: 0016379
2011-04-01 12:54FootkerchiefIssue Monitored: hyndis
2011-04-01 12:54FootkerchiefIssue Monitored: Nimrod
2011-04-01 12:54FootkerchiefIssue Monitored: rpetiger
2011-04-01 12:54FootkerchiefNote Added: 0016947
2011-04-01 12:55FootkerchiefTag Attached: AWAITING UPDATE
2011-04-19 01:17EskarionNote Added: 0017440
2011-05-25 09:29cephaloNote Added: 0017845
2011-05-25 13:04ponomNote Added: 0017846
2011-05-25 13:05ponomIssue Monitored: ponom
2011-05-25 13:07ponomNote Edited: 0017846bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0017846#r6660
2011-05-25 13:20QuietustNote Added: 0017847
2011-05-26 11:53ponomNote Added: 0017858
2011-05-26 23:23zweiIssue Monitored: zwei
2011-10-21 01:55KogutNote Added: 0018871
2011-10-21 01:55KogutIssue Monitored: Kogut
2011-10-22 12:22KogutNote Edited: 0018871bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0018871#r7080
2012-01-25 12:46FootkerchiefTag Attached: Save Included
2012-01-25 12:46FootkerchiefTag Detached: Fixed in 0.31.22?
2012-01-25 12:46FootkerchiefTag Detached: AWAITING UPDATE
2012-02-29 12:27robertheinrichNote Added: 0020923
2012-03-04 22:07etherflanIssue Monitored: etherflan
2012-03-23 05:01BuglistIssue Monitored: Buglist
2012-03-25 19:35FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0005703
2012-07-13 17:21toybasherNote Added: 0023222
2013-12-07 04:16ThundercraftIssue Monitored: Thundercraft
2014-07-24 05:12lethosorNote Added: 0027399
2014-07-24 05:13lethosorNote Edited: 0027399bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0027399#r10288
2014-07-24 05:13lethosorTag Attached: Fixed in 0.40.01?
2014-07-24 05:16lethosorSummaryTurtles went extinct on my map => Aquatic populations (fish, turtles) do not replenish
2014-07-24 05:17lethosorSummaryAquatic populations (fish, turtles) do not replenish => Aquatic populations (fish, turtles) do not replenish, gradually become extinct
2014-07-24 05:58lethosorNote Added: 0027400
2014-07-24 05:58lethosorStatusnew => resolved
2014-07-24 05:58lethosorFixed in Version => 0.40.01
2014-07-24 05:58lethosorResolutionopen => fixed
2014-07-24 05:58lethosorAssigned To => Toady One
2014-08-07 17:07LociTag Attached: not fixed
2014-08-07 17:13lethosorAssigned ToToady One => lethosor
2014-08-07 17:13lethosorNote Added: 0028547
2014-08-07 17:13lethosorStatusresolved => needs feedback
2014-08-07 17:13lethosorResolutionfixed => reopened
2014-08-07 17:13lethosorTag Detached: Fixed in 0.40.01?
2014-08-07 17:13lethosorTag Detached: not fixed
2014-08-07 17:21lethosorNote Edited: 0028547bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0028547#r10926
2014-08-07 17:26LociNote Added: 0028549
2014-08-07 17:50lethosorNote Added: 0028551
2014-08-07 17:51lethosorSummaryAquatic populations (fish, turtles) do not replenish, gradually become extinct => Pond/pool populations (e.g. pond turtles) do not replenish, gradually become extinct
2014-08-07 17:51lethosorStatusneeds feedback => acknowledged
2015-01-09 19:28FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004500
2016-08-11 17:51lethosorFixed in Version0.40.01 =>
2016-10-16 10:46QuietustNote Edited: 0011466bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0011466#r14504
2016-11-01 09:01FantasticDorfNote Added: 0036019
2016-11-01 11:30FantasticDorfNote Edited: 0036019bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0036019#r14515
2016-11-01 11:34FantasticDorfNote Edited: 0036019bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0036019#r14516
2017-06-08 19:31HuntthetrollIssue Monitored: Huntthetroll

2010-07-21 20:51   
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2759 [^]

Here is a save for a different bug but it also has no turtles.
2010-07-22 01:51   
turtles, once they are all fished, wont regenerate.
2010-07-22 05:23   
There are some pools in the southern part of my map where the turtles came from, and they are definately still fishable because I've designated a fishing spot and I've seen fish taken there, just no turtles.

I'm not sure if this is related to 0002015, because I have plenty of fish.
2010-08-03 15:20   
I've had several forts where fish went completely extinct. Not just turtles. Most recent one was at the crossing of a stream and a brook, but I think it was .07.

I guess that you can empty a whole region of fish, or whatever map unit dwarf mode populations come from. The region was temperate-cold, freezing in winter, so there was at least one full season of no fishing each year.
2010-08-03 18:41   
(edited on: 2016-10-16 10:46)
This was frequent in 40d as well - after enough fishing, your region would be permanently depleted of aquatic life.

2010-08-04 11:56   
Seen this as well even with large wildlife. Have an old fortress in 31.08 thats some 40 years after embark. All underground wildlife has been wiped out by my military and it appears to be gone forever.
2011-03-19 18:08   
I have trouble with turtles also. Most time, turtles are not availible at all, yet shells are still needed for moods. My answer was to just modify the raws so I could use bones instead of shells.
2011-04-01 12:54   
Reminder sent to: cephalo, hyndis, Nimrod, rpetiger

Is anyone still experiencing this bug in worlds generated in 0.31.23+? Closely related bug 0002015 was fixed in that version.
2011-04-19 01:17   
Happened also in a world created with 32.25. I'm now in year 24 after embark and all fish/turtles in the brook and the pools is gone though I had plenty at the begining.
2011-05-25 09:29   
In a world created with 32.25, I have no fish of any kind after about 20 years.
2011-05-25 13:04   
(edited on: 2011-05-25 13:07)
Playing 32.24 ran out of mussels in brook after ~ 3 years.
It has become extinct.
Although there are some vermin fish seen on the map it says "there's nothing to catch in the river" and in fishing zone it is still "0".
New animal are coming each season/year but not fish.
Playing temperate biome.

Plz check bugged save with no fish although submitted to other bug

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=4307 [^]

2011-05-25 13:20   
I assume the above 3 comments meant to refer to 0.31.* rather than 32.*
2011-05-26 11:53   
yes. sorry it is 31.24.

just checked once again.

every season in zone fishing value is greater than 0.
dwarf starts fishing, then reports "there is nothing to catch in the river" and fishing value resets.
2011-10-21 01:55   
(edited on: 2011-10-22 12:22)
It is not limited to turtles, all fish will go extinct (in .25)

2012-02-29 12:27   
Having the same problem with .34.04
My fisherdwarves stripped a river of all it had.

Now while I would understand that you can overfish a murky pool (if nothing which could reproduce is left it naturally goes extinct) I think that should not be possible for a river since you would expect new fish coming in from up- or downstream.
2012-07-13 17:21   
All fish went completely extinct in the rivers and pools within 5 years.
2014-07-24 05:12   
(edited on: 2014-07-24 05:13)
Given http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2013.html#2013-11-09 [^] , this should be looked into for 0.40.xx.

2014-07-24 05:58   
DFHack seems to confirm this, so I'm resolving this issue. If anyone can reproduce it in 0.40.xx, please reopen this report and/or send me a message on the forums.
2014-08-07 17:13   
(edited on: 2014-08-07 17:21)

2014-08-07 17:26   
I ramped up fishing to test this bug. After many pond turtle roasts (apparently the only species available in my embark), the supply stopped. It has been five in-game years with "nothing to catch"--if the population was refreshing slowly I would expect at least a few new critters to spawn in that time frame.
2014-08-07 17:50   
Pond turtles only live in pools, so it could be that only river populations were fixed (which would explain my results). I'll re-title this report again, but feel free to share any additional findings.
2016-11-01 09:01   
(edited on: 2016-11-01 11:34)
Pond turtles lay eggs, which might contribute why they will only breed in off site statistics if that's any relevance.

DF structures used for dfhack only implies that eggs that are hatched go into certain classes, and entity ID is one of them for intelligent species (crow men eggs layed and hatched on site belong to you etc., underground egg laying races have been in constant decline since they were added because of this until recently)

Egg layers have always had a hard time repopulating due to dependency on a object to breed which limited and stagnated them in world gen (made easier by spontaneous population regeneration in world-gen recently). I cannot recollect if its possible to offer pet pond turtles nestboxes to use by pitting or pasturing enough of them in a contained area as a alternative or even if they have additional orientation/marriage barriers to overcome we are not aware of.

All gendered vermin breed (or apparently breed, they have the prequesite animal tags but its uncertain whether they become pregnant whilst in the game world before leaving for the site population tally and being replaced with a new generated creature in their momentary existances, or even if they do become pregnant at all with child/adult born states) hermaphrodital or non-gender typical vermin are usually accounted for by being virtually innumerable to compensate for no breeding on site. Technically if the female pond turtle could get off the map by dissapearing and being replaced whilst pregnant it could spawn additional turtles slowly.

Fish are very visible with ASCII symbols and can be seen in murky ponds and rivers for periods of time if a example is needed, if they are close together they are in the capacity to breed and keep the numbers up. Drop a sizable amount of caught vermin fish into a empty pool and it should sustain the fish in theory as they repopulate with compatible mates in that area.

Similar designs have been used with isolated cave spider rooms with wild vermin which appear to be self sustainable and harvested with burrowed animal trappers & web collectors.

Under 'Cave spider silk farm': http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Silk_farming [^]