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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0004113Dwarf FortressVegetationpublic2011-03-03 09:492014-09-25 21:29
ReporterAlumine 
Assigned ToToady One 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityhave not tried
StatusresolvedResolutionfixed 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version0.31.19 
Target VersionFixed in Version0.40.13 
Summary0004113: Large grazers (elephants and giraffes) can't eat fast enough to keep from starving
DescriptionAside from the path-finding bug, there is another problem.
Even if I permanently move my animals around, so that they find new grass tiles, I noticed Elephants and Giraffes are still always hungry and starving to death after some time.
It's like they can't eat fast enough.
Elephant raw has a note.
       [GRAZER:12] don't have browsing trees yet
So it looks like at some point, they should be able to eat off trees, which should fix the issue of them starving.
Steps To Reproduce
Additional Information
TagsNo tags attached.
Relationships
related to 0004018resolved Toady One Grazing animals don't spread out in pasture zone, starve to death as a result 
related to 0004354resolved Toady One Giant critters size changed, Grazer not changed 
has duplicate 0006181resolved Knight Otu water buffalos starving to death no matter the size of the pasture 
related to 0004367resolved Toady One Animals all try to graze from pasture's top left corner, starvation ensues 
related to 0004446resolved Toady One Grazing hungry animals eat slower - snowballs starvation 
related to 0004962resolved Footkerchief War Animals Won't Eat 
related to 0004637acknowledged lethosor Elk birds starve to death trying to hatch eggs because of [GRAZER] tag. 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2011-03-03 09:49AlumineNew Issue
2011-03-03 09:51FootkerchiefNote Added: 0015709
2011-03-03 09:51FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004018
2011-03-03 09:52FootkerchiefSummaryElephants and similar dying => Elephants and giraffes can't eat fast enough to keep from starving
2011-03-03 12:09Hieronymous AlloyIssue Monitored: Hieronymous Alloy
2011-03-03 12:59NarosNote Added: 0015714
2011-03-03 13:00NarosNote Edited: 0015714bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0015714#r5902
2011-03-03 13:47Khym ChanurIssue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2011-03-07 03:18AlumineNote Added: 0015882
2011-03-07 11:39hyperactiveChipmunkNote Added: 0015910
2011-03-07 11:45DoctorZuberNote Added: 0015914
2011-03-08 20:25RhenayaNote Added: 0015986
2011-03-27 07:32FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004354
2011-03-27 20:49FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004367
2011-04-02 13:49FootkerchiefSummaryElephants and giraffes can't eat fast enough to keep from starving => Large grazers (elephants and giraffes) can't eat fast enough to keep from starving
2011-04-04 12:00DekonNote Added: 0017062
2011-04-04 12:06ellindseyNote Added: 0017063
2011-04-04 12:46DekonNote Added: 0017065
2011-04-04 13:25FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004446
2011-04-14 06:40AlumineNote Added: 0017356
2011-04-14 12:59kwielandNote Added: 0017367
2011-06-03 07:19AlumineNote Added: 0017926
2011-07-15 07:09theothersteve7Note Added: 0018243
2011-07-16 10:11KumquatNote Added: 0018260
2011-07-17 07:58kwielandNote Added: 0018267
2011-07-22 16:51VheridIssue Monitored: Vherid
2011-09-23 21:46kenohNote Added: 0018754
2011-12-07 09:28FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004962
2012-08-28 08:54nshapterNote Added: 0023500
2012-08-30 04:07Knight OtuRelationship addedhas duplicate 0006181
2014-08-09 11:32FootkerchiefAssigned To => Footkerchief
2014-08-09 11:32FootkerchiefStatusnew => confirmed
2014-08-09 11:574maskwolfIssue Monitored: 4maskwolf
2014-09-08 07:37ptb_ptbNote Added: 0030033
2014-09-08 07:39ptb_ptbNote Edited: 0030033bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030033#r11699
2014-09-12 11:44Toady OneStatusconfirmed => resolved
2014-09-12 11:44Toady OneFixed in Version => Next Version
2014-09-12 11:44Toady OneResolutionopen => fixed
2014-09-12 11:44Toady OneAssigned ToFootkerchief => Toady One
2014-09-25 21:294maskwolfIssue End Monitor: 4maskwolf
2015-01-03 13:41FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004637

Notes
(0015709)
Footkerchief   
2011-03-03 09:51   
Reminder sent to: Alumine

Are you able to rule out 0004018 as the cause?
(0015714)
Naros   
2011-03-03 12:59   
(edited on: 2011-03-03 13:00)
The only way Elephants will be able to keep from starving is if they ate every tick, and happened to stand on a magical tile of grass that is never depleted.

As it is understood:
1 time unit adds 1 hunger
Eating reduces hunger by 12 units.
Eating or moving requires 10 time units.

Eat + Move = 20 time units. So any grazing creature that has a GRAZER value of less than 20 will starve even on perfect grazing grounds.

Browsing trees will likely solve it for elephants, so it's a matter of waiting for the BROWSER ability to be implemented, in addition to animal feed like hay?
(0015882)
Alumine   
2011-03-07 03:18   
yes. 0004018 is definitely not the cause.

animal feed would be awesome!
(0015910)
hyperactiveChipmunk   
2011-03-07 11:39   
Confirming. My war rhinos suffer the same fate, it seems.

Nobody fears my emaciated, waif-like rhinos. >8(
(0015914)
DoctorZuber   
2011-03-07 11:45   
Noo.... How can we have mighty rampaging elephants if they're all dead!?

Sounds like this calls for a raw edit till this gets fixed proper-like.
(0015986)
Rhenaya   
2011-03-08 20:25   
this is even a problem with water buffalos (60 grazer), only cows and upward (120 grazer) dont seem to starve while grazing
(0017062)
Dekon   
2011-04-04 12:00   
Can confirm - Yaks seem to barely eventually starve after a long, grueling period - despite being able to constantly consume.

Honestly it just sounds like the amount of hunger eating reduces needs to be upped, with perhaps more food being required for smaller animals (referencing wiki chart on pasture). Yaks shouldn't have to eat -ALL- the time to survive anyway, nor should elephants. While feed/browsing may help, Yaks still won't browse, even when browser is introduced - so they'd still die.
(0017063)
ellindsey   
2011-04-04 12:06   
I've been able to keep yaks alive, and even breed them, but only by creating very large pastures and rotating them to new grazing ground after they destroy all the grass in the old one. Also, I keep numbers down to less than half a dozen adults.
(0017065)
Dekon   
2011-04-04 12:46   
All I had were two yaks on a 17x21 pasture, and they certainly hadn't consumed everything. They both starved to death.

What -MIGHT- have happened is this - The Yaks were hungry when I put them on the pasture. Hunger slows down activities...which might include eating. If hunger slows down eating, then the Yaks would eat slower, and thus would not be able to maintain themselves. This would snowball, and especially a starving Yak would not be able to survive long.
(0017356)
Alumine   
2011-04-14 06:40   
well I modified the grazervalues to a minimum of 100, nothing starved so far.
(0017367)
kwieland   
2011-04-14 12:59   
It could be related to the bug that makes animals graze only on the north (west?) corner of a pasture.
(0017926)
Alumine   
2011-06-03 07:19   
I think everything on DF starts in the northwest if they have the choice.
If you channel a square in the ground for example, they'll start in the northwest
(0018243)
theothersteve7   
2011-07-15 07:09   
From a balance standpoint, the amount of open grassy space you need per animal is awfully high. High enough that animals bigger than alpacas and goats aren't really worth it in practice, especially with milking and shearing where they are, and that cat farming seems like a logical course of action for leather. Dwarves are traditionally decked out in kitten leather.

Raising grazervalues seems like a very wise decision; 60-100 seems a fair minimum given animal stupidity. You may wish to make animal hides not all a constant 1 per animal as well, and to change the milking increment per species.
(0018260)
Kumquat   
2011-07-16 10:11   
Indeed. From a realism standpoint, the amount of feed grazers need isn't linearly related to mass. A vole, for instance, needs to eat about its own weight a day to survive, and it's rather ludicrous to imagine an elephant doing so. Larger animals have slower metabolism, and probably also relatively more 'low-metabolism' tissue like fat and bones. A square-root relationship would probably be closer to realism, so you'd get 3 sheep 40kg each eating as much as a single 400kg cow.

Then again, animals from harsh biomes, such as yaks and camels, should thrive with even less, but that probably goes beyond automatic tweaking.
(0018267)
kwieland   
2011-07-17 07:58   
I was thinking about this yesterday as I was out hiking. Does it make sense for elephants to live any climate? Probably not. But, you could raise them anywhere with the ability to stock food and feed them "hay" or some such feeding mechanism.
(0018754)
kenoh   
2011-09-23 21:46   
Posted this in the suggestion forums. Kumquat has the exact right idea. For the grand majority of animals, for every double in size their metabolism only goes up 75%. It's called Kleiber's Law. I would bet that Toady would like to see the math for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleiber%27s_law [^]
(0023500)
nshapter   
2012-08-28 08:54   
^Bump^

This is still the case in 34.11

I have an approximately 20x20 pasture with nothing but one starving Rhinoceros assigned.
(0030033)
ptb_ptb   
2014-09-08 07:37   
(edited on: 2014-09-08 07:39)
Water buffalo still starving in 40.11