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|ID||Project||Category||View Status||Date Submitted||Last Update|
|0010443||Dwarf Fortress||Dwarf Mode -- Justice||public||2017-12-11 07:58||2018-12-04 12:55|
|Target Version||Fixed in Version|
|Summary||0010443: Dwarves keep dying from beatings and suffer severe injuries.|
|Description||After appointing captain of the guard after some time, pending punishments activated and dozens of dwarves in my fortress died to beatings for minor crimes. Hospitals swarmed, generally justice system sucks I take it as a bug that beating is pretty much death sentence in most of cases. Truly ludicrous.|
And no, equipping all of your dwarves with helments and iron is not a solution should someone not have any or little metal in the embark. Nor assigining crippled dwarf is also NOT a solution but a WORK AROUND by players(Still even though I tried assigning weakest dwarf, deaths still occured!)
|Steps To Reproduce||Play Dwarf Mode, wait until you get some nobles, and also until your population reaches fairly high number, ignore all mandates, and after 3-4 ingame years assign captain of the guard with few guards and observe how your dwarves are getting beaten to death.|
|Tags||No tags attached.|
|Behold, the only real use for training weapons. I mean really, it's your choice what weapons are assigned to the fortress guard, if the only option your dorfs have when doling out justice is a fine set of adamantine swords, you should expect the beatings to involve a few more missing limbs than you'd like. :V|
|Or adamantine hammers :)|
Though training weapons are cheaper. Plus in the case of swords tend to have a broad contact area. In my arena testing I could only ever bruise a dwarven test subject, with the worst damage being minor bleeding for torn skin, caused by indirect damage after head necks.
The only time I got some seemingly dangerous injury was when a pommel strike to the head knocked them unconscious, but even this was merely a bruising injury with no brain damage listed.
|I have never had problems with beatings. I rarely, if ever, even get punishments assigned. It sounds like this is more caused by you not having any jails and refusing to do mandates.|
|Which weapons have you tried to assign to those captains of the guard? Beating somebody with weapons used for normal combat leading to serious injuries sounds as an intended behavior to me.|
|See first comment, don't assign stupidly lethal weapons to your nightstick squad.|
|Guard was a squad of 5 untrained dabblers, with 4 training spears, 1 training sword and 5 wooden shields. Dwarves still got beaten to death, regardless all you people talk about is W-O-R-K A-R-O-U-N-D not a real solution to an ingame problem.|
Can you tell me what the most common cause of death was? I would guess that all of them, or at least almost all, resulted from repeated head strikes, especially after unconsciousness.
Does "don't even bother assigning justice positions because basically no dwarf is going to have bad thoughts from lack of law enforcement" count as a workaround? :V
That said, what WOULD be nice is if beatings where essentially paused for a time being until the dwarf either at least regains consciousness, or until both that plus a hospital trip. The first one especially, it just wouldn't do for a murderous vampire (or more likely some poor twat who got blamed by a whiny noble) to sleep through half their punishment.
That would ensure that the fortress guard doesn't spam strikes to the face after their victim passes out, which is just about the only way training weapons can kill, in my experience so far.
That said, even if there is some form of fix to this, I HIGHLY doubt it's going to invalidate my point: beatings can be dangerous, and chances are you'll still need to use training weapons or other less-lethal options. You're not going to hand a guy a sword and say "oi, krump this guy a few times" to them.
edited on: 2017-12-14 17:28
Sheering value kills even on training weapons? LOLZ! Bug?
Captain of the Guard alone is not responsible for beatings. Beatings are done by his squad too. So, very week Dwarves? Adamantine/Willow wood/ crossbows exclusively?
I am not sure if training marksdwarves rises their strength ability or not. I think I read somewhere that military training could rise some Dwarves strength. I never seen that happen though. Maybe you need to play fortress for 100 years instead of 10-20? Though I always set up my militia last, as they get immediately glued to their bare sticks after training just few levels of their skills. If you train them without master quality weapons, shield and armor, this is huge issue. VERY HUGE. Though shield out of leather should be the best imho and easiest to replace, if broken. MQ shield, even on unarmored wrestlers, should do difference. Right? Though for the Guards... Adamantine shields only? :D No shield even? :D
|Um, Detros. You having a lil trouble with issue linking there? Because I kinda doubt that http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10426 [^] is related to this...|
|The deaths/beatings are likely caused by the force transfer being overpowered, so punches to the head will break necks, punches to the leg will tear the hip, etc. When that is tweaked (either via official release, or by using balance mods), beatings are quite easy to survive.|
Still seeing this in 44.12, where the sheriff just murders every dwarf. Beatings are death sentences.
A semi-workaround I've used is to massively increase the durability of brain tissue. I've adjusted the material stats of brains to be the same as iron. Dwarves are known for being thick-headed...
Still, a punch often causes the head to actually explode. The entire head explodes into gore from a single punch. Even adding in [NO_THOUGHT_CENTER_FOR_MOVEMENT] still doesn't protect dwarves against having their heads exploded. No weapons are involved either. Fists cause heads to explode.
Whats interesting is that making internal organs more durable means combat lasts longer. There are more injuries in combat, but injuries that can heal. Survivable injuries. By default combat is too binary. Either a dwarf is completely untouched or dead, with almost zero middle ground.
An unintended side effect of making organic body tissue more durable is that undead are much harder to kill. Especially large undead. Undead rhinos are horrifying.
Anyone know if the guy doing the beating tries to remove a helmet once the dwarf loses consciousness if the victim has a helmet?
One workaround I can think of would be the AI for dwarves doing a beating trying to prioritize limbs and joints and avoiding attacking the head and possibly torso. Beatings would still mess up dwarves and wound them, break ribs and joints, etc. but less "Beat dwarf into unconsciousness, then cave his skull in" situations would occur.
Or merely override the AI's preference for hitting the head on unconscious dwarves during a beating. Head hits would still occur but not be deliberately targeted like before.
0010861 even though it is meant to bruise only, with brawling enabled meaning they won't use their weapons for the actual beating @Samaritan123 even while fully equipped, my own encounter was deadly with biting the jugular out didn't require dressing down my dwarves.
And on another instance, applying such pressure to the foot that the toe exploded into gore on 44.12.
|2017-12-11 07:58||Stormblessed||New Issue|
|2017-12-11 10:08||chaosvolt||Note Added: 0037286|
|2017-12-11 19:06||mrmagolor||Note Added: 0037287|
|2017-12-11 23:10||chaosvolt||Note Added: 0037289|
|2017-12-12 13:28||a52||Note Added: 0037292|
|2017-12-12 15:53||Detros||Note Added: 0037294|
|2017-12-12 15:53||Detros||Assigned To||=> Detros|
|2017-12-12 15:53||Detros||Status||new => needs feedback|
|2017-12-12 18:30||chaosvolt||Note Added: 0037296|
|2017-12-14 09:07||Stormblessed||Note Added: 0037302|
|2017-12-14 09:07||Stormblessed||Status||needs feedback => assigned|
|2017-12-14 09:35||chaosvolt||Note Added: 0037303|
|2017-12-14 17:11||Sarmatian123||Note Added: 0037310|
|2017-12-14 17:14||Sarmatian123||Note Edited: 0037310||View Revisions|
|2017-12-14 17:17||Sarmatian123||Note Edited: 0037310||View Revisions|
|2017-12-14 17:28||Sarmatian123||Note Edited: 0037310||View Revisions|
|2018-03-09 23:55||Detros||Relationship added||related to 0010426|
|2018-03-10 01:07||chaosvolt||Note Added: 0037864|
|2018-03-10 06:25||Orkel||Note Added: 0037865|
|2018-11-11 12:50||hyndis||Note Added: 0038928|
|2018-12-04 10:52||toybasher||Note Added: 0039003|
|2018-12-04 12:55||FantasticDorf||Note Added: 0039004|
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