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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000023Dwarf FortressCombat -- Generalpublic2010-04-01 14:542014-07-18 00:22
Assigned ToToady One 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0000023: Bite attacks frequently glance away or are generally ineffective
DescriptionI have team of alligators duking it out in arena (first thing I did with new version), but they can't seem to kill each other. I assume control of one and the combat logs are full of
alligator n bites alligator m in the ____ but the blow glances

I'm pretty sure alligator teeth are harder then alligator skin :P
Steps To Reproducemake alligators fight each other :P
Attached Files

- Relationships
related to 0000033resolvedToady One Bronze colossus, skeletal creatures, fleshballs, and others are impossible to kill 
parent of 0000744resolvedToady One Wolf bite unable to penetrate silk clothing, due to teeth being only as hard as skin 
parent of 0000802closedFootkerchief War dogs are useless 
has duplicate 0000270closedLogical2u Biting alligators merely dent. 

-  Notes
B0015 (reporter)
2010-04-01 14:56

This also happens with two bronze colossi.
Dwarfu (manager)
2010-04-01 15:01

Is this actually a bug? Maybe it is just the way you are envisioning the words. Perhaps the alligator bit it sideways and couldn't clamp down, so that the side of his jaw just kind of slid closed on the side of the other one, not actually penetrating it, but, you know, glancing...
SirPenguin (reporter)
2010-04-01 15:52

I had a similar problem in adventurer mode. Me vs. a bear, with my guy fighting with only a shield, ended up being a neverending fight. He'd glancing blow me, and I'd glancing blow him. Not one injury. Seems to be a glancing blow type of problem!
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-01 22:28

I've tried alligators against a few different things in the arena and I have to say I'm very afraid of alligators suddenly. very, very afraid...
nichaey (reporter)
2010-04-02 00:18

Yeah, I considered that, but that would be a rare occurrence, unlike the 100% of the time it happens now.
Considering I let them fight for like 10 minutes and the only thing damaged were the eyes.
bradb (reporter)
2010-04-02 22:59

I think skin needs some tweaking so that it isn't so strong.

"You strike Bat Man 1 in the throat with your Bat Man 1's right eye tooth, but the attack glances away!"

"You strike Bat Man 1 in the right eyelid with your Bat Man 1's right eye tooth, but the attack glances away!"

Yes. I know I am using an improvised weapon and adding in another variable, but either way something here needs a tweak.
SirPenguin (reporter)
2010-04-08 12:24

I'm almost positive this is due to MANY toothed creatures lacking the EDGE tag to their teeth attacks. Dogs and cats have it and they don't seem to have this problem.
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-28 03:39

see 0000744

It's not that skin is too strong, it's that teeth (and horns and hooves and many other things) are only as hard as skin when they should be much harder.
gruftschreck (reporter)
2010-06-02 14:21

maybe someone could tell toadyone about this bug? It's an easy simple fix, which would be nice to be already included in the next version (and has not to be modded after release)...
Jiri Petru (reporter)
2010-06-02 14:35

Well, I've attached the quick fix tag.
Toady One (administrator)
2010-06-06 05:27

From 0000744:

Ah, cool. I had noticed alligators couldn't kill each other, but I thought there was more going on so I filed it with the combat rebalance stuff. I'm just going to use bone values for the necessary templates until something better comes up. I made nails more elastic. Good values are annoying to find in general.

I'm going to leave [this issue] open, as robes still seemed overpowered faced with a multi-grizzly assault on a dwarf and I want to run the numbers there later.
smjjames (reporter)
2010-07-03 20:37
edited on: 2010-07-03 20:46

Speaking of this one, the bite attacks of sharks seems a bit weaker than they should be, but they pretty quickly tear through by the second or third turn.

It may be more of an opinion here since dwarves and adventurers wouldn't encounter sharks aside from undead ones anyhow.

TomiTapio (reporter)
2010-07-14 11:40
edited on: 2010-07-14 11:53

Found tooth enamel Young's modulus at [^]
83 GPa and 12,000,000 lbf/in.

Tooth hardness science stuff [^]

"From the load versus depth of indentation curve Young's modulus was found to be typically 8.3×10^10 Pa and the yield stress to be 3.3×10^8 Pa." [^]

Some bone data:

Bone and glass and copper: [^] [^]

human vs cow bone! [^]

silk silk bone [^]

Sorry to spam but I found stuff for you.

Footkerchief (manager)
2010-07-14 11:43

Reminder sent to: Toady One

Tooth material properties posted at 0000023:0010248.
thvaz (reporter)
2012-02-27 00:08

Toady got around to change the teeth values in the raws? As of 34.02, unarmored characters are in bad trouble against creatures with teeth...
thvaz (reporter)
2012-03-28 03:25

I tested intensively in arena mode.

Alligator vs alligator = one alligator is always killed fast. Tested 15 times.
Alligator vs dwarf with silk clothing = dwarf always dies very fast, Few "defleted by"
Dwarf with silkvs wolf = dwarf wins though always heavily wounded.

This bug was reported before targeted attacks, so it was common for creatures to spend a long time hitting non vital body parts, but this is not the case anymore. I think we may close it.
Footkerchief (manager)
2012-03-31 07:41

Okay, I guess we can close this.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2010-04-01 14:54 nichaey New Issue
2010-04-01 14:56 B0015 Note Added: 0000016
2010-04-01 15:01 Dwarfu Note Added: 0000018
2010-04-01 15:52 SirPenguin Note Added: 0000026
2010-04-01 22:28 DoctorZuber Note Added: 0000105
2010-04-02 00:18 nichaey Note Added: 0000125
2010-04-02 05:56 Todestool Tag Attached: combat
2010-04-02 22:59 bradb Note Added: 0000432
2010-04-03 15:08 Footkerchief Category General => Combat -- General
2010-04-08 12:24 SirPenguin Note Added: 0002121
2010-04-08 18:49 Footkerchief Relationship added parent of 0000744
2010-04-08 18:51 Footkerchief Summary Glancing bites => Bite attacks frequently glance away or are generally ineffective
2010-04-28 03:39 derigo Note Added: 0005497
2010-04-28 08:36 Logical2u Relationship added parent of 0000270
2010-04-28 08:36 Logical2u Relationship added parent of 0000802
2010-04-28 08:50 Logical2u Relationship deleted parent of 0000270
2010-04-28 08:50 Logical2u Relationship added has duplicate 0000270
2010-06-02 14:21 gruftschreck Note Added: 0007581
2010-06-02 14:34 Jiri Petru Tag Attached: Probable Quick Fix
2010-06-02 14:35 Jiri Petru Note Added: 0007582
2010-06-06 05:27 Toady One Note Added: 0007784
2010-06-06 05:27 Toady One Assigned To => Toady One
2010-06-06 05:27 Toady One Status new => acknowledged
2010-06-06 05:27 Toady One Tag Detached: Probable Quick Fix
2010-06-06 05:36 Cel Issue Monitored: Cel
2010-07-03 20:10 Blebleman Issue Monitored: Blebleman
2010-07-03 20:37 smjjames Note Added: 0009602
2010-07-03 20:46 smjjames Note Edited: 0009602 View Revisions
2010-07-05 03:56 Khym Chanur Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2010-07-14 08:25 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0000033
2010-07-14 11:40 TomiTapio Note Added: 0010248
2010-07-14 11:43 Footkerchief Note Added: 0010249
2010-07-14 11:53 TomiTapio Note Edited: 0010248 View Revisions
2010-08-14 12:48 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0003025
2012-02-20 18:52 Footkerchief Relationship deleted related to 0003025
2012-02-27 00:08 thvaz Note Added: 0020789
2012-02-27 00:08 thvaz Issue Monitored: thvaz
2012-03-28 03:25 thvaz Note Added: 0021817
2012-03-31 05:29 thvaz Tag Attached: close
2012-03-31 05:29 thvaz Tag Detached: close
2012-03-31 05:30 thvaz Tag Attached: CLOSE THIS
2012-03-31 07:41 Footkerchief Note Added: 0021941
2012-03-31 07:41 Footkerchief Status acknowledged => resolved
2012-03-31 07:41 Footkerchief Resolution open => fixed
2012-03-31 07:41 Footkerchief Tag Detached: CLOSE THIS
2012-03-31 08:20 thvaz Issue End Monitor: thvaz
2014-07-18 00:22 Cel Issue End Monitor: Cel

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