0008001: Elf/dwarf sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations)

(0029031)
dree12 (reporter)
2014-08-14 10:33

Confirmation: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141310 [^]

(0029055)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2014-08-14 15:03

What's odd is, after having mimicked the effects of the human lord's position successfully, I'm having trouble getting the same combination of tokens to work with an elven or dwarven position.

(0029058)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2014-08-14 15:48
edited on: 2014-08-14 16:08

Okay, I went and copied the mocked-up lord position as-is into each civ, made sure no standard positions would compete with them, and tested them. Only the human civ allowed me to gain control of a site, so it seems there's something more to this issue, which I think might be tied to how local lords are referred to as ruling from a location in their site of residence.

I'm thinking it might also require the [BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS] token in the entity, as well. Time for some !!SCIENCE!! on this.

EDIT: Confirmed, plus some complications. The fortifications tag, plus a position filling the requirements mentioned earlier, allows conquest. Problem is that that token no longer works with site types other than towns.

(0029060)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-08-14 16:49

I'm pretty sure this is intentional (one of many things that was unfinished in this release) but I'll leave it open.

(0029077)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2014-08-15 01:10

While I'm at it, I kinda wish I'd science'd up the issue further before reporting, as now it's a "tweak" bug that in fact can't be tweaked, and might be better re-categorized as minor instead.

I'd also add the requirement of fortifications and towns, and thus the fact the issue can't be fixed without fundamentally altering elven and dwarven flavor, if I could edit the "additional notes" section. ._.

(0029097)
smjjames (reporter)
2014-08-15 10:02

Like Footkerchief said, it's one of those unfinished things. Insurrections making all shops turn into taverns ( 0007764 ) probably should be looked at first.

(0029663)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2014-08-26 10:19
edited on: 2014-08-26 13:16

Assigned to...hmm. Not sure what that'll entail. O.o

(0034640)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2016-02-11 12:48

So dare I ask what it means when an issue is self-assigned?

This has been in assigned status for over a year.

(0034678)
Detros (manager)
2016-02-16 00:55

I see these assignments as who-is-supervising-this-report rather than who-is-working-on-fixing-this-issue as it is used in other projects. When Toady wants to fix some issue he just goes and does so and then assigns it to himself, to mark that given report no more needs close supervision of one of managers. Not assigned reports usually mean not-yet-checked-by-one-of-managers.

(0034801)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2016-03-07 09:52

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

(0035357)
Witty (reporter)
2016-06-06 14:52

It's interesting to note that dark fortress sites do actually have a mead hall like area in the upper parts of the spiral. This area tends to contain the demon master, but I've also found lords/ladies in this area as well. It seems that the demon master suffers from the same problem as monarchs and law-givers in that they only rule over the civ, and not the capital area itself.

(0035362)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2016-06-07 09:19

Do what now? Strange, as I've tested trying to bump off goblin lords in the past.

Has that element of the bug been accidentally fixed then? Interesting.

(0039657)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2020-01-07 08:50
edited on: 2020-01-08 01:18

I can confirm for 44.12 modding a rule from location custom noble with [SITE] will incur the demon-master to share the dark-tower's throne room. [REQUIRES_MARKET],[SITE] and [RULES_FROM_LOCATION] will establish them in each established tower of that civ specifically rather than pits in the evil entity example.

(0039658)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2020-01-07 08:53

Its a proposed simple solution to the original issue report and they shouldnt step-over one another in authority because of the demon-masters hardcoded monarch position for wider control over nobles or sites under them.

Lack of elves locally rulng may be responsible to incomplete site maps, such as dungeons for holding prisoners (and areas to gather nobles) so Toady didn't fill it in perhaps.

(0040538)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2020-05-10 23:15

That does not address the main issue, actually. I am aware that goblin sites CAN have a power location that permits conquest, and if they generate a lord then at least in some versions they'll be vulnerable to conquest all the same.

The issue that took me a bit of post-OP messing about to realize is that elven and dwarven sites seem to lack any zone they can rule from, IN ADDITION to none of the positions being put together in the right way to count as lords.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2014-08-14 07:55	chaosvolt	New Issue
2014-08-14 07:59	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: administrative positions
2014-08-14 07:59	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: adventurer mode
2014-08-14 07:59	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: position
2014-08-14 07:59	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: 0.40.08
2014-08-14 07:59	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: claim
2014-08-14 07:59	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: conquest
2014-08-14 10:28	Footkerchief	Summary	Elven and dwarven cities cannot be conquered => Elven and dwarven cities cannot be conquered, since they don't have a leader to kill
2014-08-14 10:33	dree12	Note Added: 0029031
2014-08-14 15:03	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0029055
2014-08-14 15:48	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0029058
2014-08-14 16:08	chaosvolt	Note Edited: 0029058	View Revisions
2014-08-14 16:48	Footkerchief	Summary	Elven and dwarven cities cannot be conquered, since they don't have a leader to kill => Elven and dwarven cities sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations)
2014-08-14 16:49	Footkerchief	Summary	Elven and dwarven cities sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations) => Elf/dwarf sites can't be claimed (lack leaders and power locations)
2014-08-14 16:49	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Intentional/Expected?
2014-08-14 16:49	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0029060
2014-08-15 01:10	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0029077
2014-08-15 09:55	chaosvolt	Issue Monitored: chaosvolt
2014-08-15 10:02	smjjames	Note Added: 0029097
2014-08-20 10:57	chaosvolt	Issue End Monitor: chaosvolt
2014-08-20 13:24	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief
2014-08-20 13:24	Footkerchief	Status	new => confirmed
2014-08-26 10:19	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0029663
2014-08-26 13:16	chaosvolt	Note Edited: 0029663	View Revisions
2016-02-11 12:48	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0034640
2016-02-16 00:55	Detros	Note Added: 0034678
2016-03-07 09:52	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0034801
2016-06-06 14:52	Witty	Note Added: 0035357
2016-06-07 09:19	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0035362
2020-01-07 08:50	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0039657
2020-01-07 08:53	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0039658
2020-01-08 01:18	FantasticDorf	Note Edited: 0039657	View Revisions
2020-05-10 23:15	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0040538

Notes
(0029031) dree12 (reporter) 2014-08-14 10:33	Confirmation: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141310 [^]

(0029055) chaosvolt (reporter) 2014-08-14 15:03	What's odd is, after having mimicked the effects of the human lord's position successfully, I'm having trouble getting the same combination of tokens to work with an elven or dwarven position.

(0029058) chaosvolt (reporter) 2014-08-14 15:48 edited on: 2014-08-14 16:08	Okay, I went and copied the mocked-up lord position as-is into each civ, made sure no standard positions would compete with them, and tested them. Only the human civ allowed me to gain control of a site, so it seems there's something more to this issue, which I think might be tied to how local lords are referred to as ruling from a location in their site of residence. I'm thinking it might also require the [BUILDS_OUTDOOR_FORTIFICATIONS] token in the entity, as well. Time for some !!SCIENCE!! on this. EDIT: Confirmed, plus some complications. The fortifications tag, plus a position filling the requirements mentioned earlier, allows conquest. Problem is that that token no longer works with site types other than towns.

(0029060) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-08-14 16:49	I'm pretty sure this is intentional (one of many things that was unfinished in this release) but I'll leave it open.

(0029077) chaosvolt (reporter) 2014-08-15 01:10	While I'm at it, I kinda wish I'd science'd up the issue further before reporting, as now it's a "tweak" bug that in fact can't be tweaked, and might be better re-categorized as minor instead. I'd also add the requirement of fortifications and towns, and thus the fact the issue can't be fixed without fundamentally altering elven and dwarven flavor, if I could edit the "additional notes" section. ._.

(0029097) smjjames (reporter) 2014-08-15 10:02	Like Footkerchief said, it's one of those unfinished things. Insurrections making all shops turn into taverns ( 0007764 ) probably should be looked at first.

(0029663) chaosvolt (reporter) 2014-08-26 10:19 edited on: 2014-08-26 13:16	Assigned to...hmm. Not sure what that'll entail. O.o

(0034640) chaosvolt (reporter) 2016-02-11 12:48	So dare I ask what it means when an issue is self-assigned? This has been in assigned status for over a year.

(0034678) Detros (manager) 2016-02-16 00:55	I see these assignments as who-is-supervising-this-report rather than who-is-working-on-fixing-this-issue as it is used in other projects. When Toady wants to fix some issue he just goes and does so and then assigns it to himself, to mark that given report no more needs close supervision of one of managers. Not assigned reports usually mean not-yet-checked-by-one-of-managers.

(0034801) chaosvolt (reporter) 2016-03-07 09:52	Ah, I see. That makes sense.

(0035357) Witty (reporter) 2016-06-06 14:52	It's interesting to note that dark fortress sites do actually have a mead hall like area in the upper parts of the spiral. This area tends to contain the demon master, but I've also found lords/ladies in this area as well. It seems that the demon master suffers from the same problem as monarchs and law-givers in that they only rule over the civ, and not the capital area itself.

(0035362) chaosvolt (reporter) 2016-06-07 09:19	Do what now? Strange, as I've tested trying to bump off goblin lords in the past. Has that element of the bug been accidentally fixed then? Interesting.

(0039657) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2020-01-07 08:50 edited on: 2020-01-08 01:18	I can confirm for 44.12 modding a rule from location custom noble with [SITE] will incur the demon-master to share the dark-tower's throne room. [REQUIRES_MARKET],[SITE] and [RULES_FROM_LOCATION] will establish them in each established tower of that civ specifically rather than pits in the evil entity example.

(0039658) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2020-01-07 08:53	Its a proposed simple solution to the original issue report and they shouldnt step-over one another in authority because of the demon-masters hardcoded monarch position for wider control over nobles or sites under them. Lack of elves locally rulng may be responsible to incomplete site maps, such as dungeons for holding prisoners (and areas to gather nobles) so Toady didn't fill it in perhaps.

(0040538) chaosvolt (reporter) 2020-05-10 23:15	That does not address the main issue, actually. I am aware that goblin sites CAN have a power location that permits conquest, and if they generate a lord then at least in some versions they'll be vulnerable to conquest all the same. The issue that took me a bit of post-OP messing about to realize is that elven and dwarven sites seem to lack any zone they can rule from, IN ADDITION to none of the positions being put together in the right way to count as lords.

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