0008157: Civilian dwarves are overly agressive

(0029629)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-08-25 20:48

How did combat begin? Was a hunter involved?

(0029651)
nonfish (reporter)
2014-08-26 08:57

No, the bear just wandered into my main hallway and promptly encountered a woodcutter and some other pleb. No one was hunting at the time.

(0029653)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-08-26 09:02
edited on: 2014-08-26 09:03

Did the woodcutter decide to attack the bear, or was it forced to defend him/herself?

(0029654)
nonfish (reporter)
2014-08-26 09:08

I think so, but it happened too fast to be sure. After it started, however, dwarves keep noticing the fight, canceling their job ("Job canceled: Interrupted by bear"), then running to join the fight. At this point, I have 8 dwarves surrounding the bear either wrestling it or passed out from exhaustion

(0029656)
Button (reporter)
2014-08-26 09:41

Did you happen to check the personality of the first dwarf to get into the fight?

(0029662)
nonfish (reporter)
2014-08-26 10:14

I just checked: The very first dwarf to get in the fight is apparently "greatly disturbed by quiet and a peaceful existence," but at this point I have 8 other dwarves involved in the fight, including at least one who "values tranquility," I'm guessing that isn't the primary cause.

It seems to me as if the dwarves instinct to flee is somehow triggering them to fight instead of run away as they always have in the past. Even if that is an intended reaction, something needs to be tweaked, since more than half my adult population (all civilians) is now wrestling or passed out from wrestling a wild bear...

(0029664)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-08-26 10:22

It seems reasonable that, if a fight has started, the other dwarves are trying to help out. It would be weirder if they just ignored their comrade getting mauled.

(0029667)
smjjames (reporter)
2014-08-26 10:27

The one with dragging the horse is a bug though.

(0029668)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-08-26 10:30

Would 0005032 explain this?

(0029670)
nonfish (reporter)
2014-08-26 10:39

No, I had no military established whatsoever (It's only fall of the first year). If the dwarves are helping out, they're doing a terrible job; I have a miner and a woodcutter both involved in the fight, but neither has unsheathed their weapons.

(0029671)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-08-26 10:45

Okay, but failing to unsheath weapons is a very different problem from getting in the wrong fight. It might not even qualify as a bug.

(0029672)
nonfish (reporter)
2014-08-26 10:53

Yeah, I wasn't sure if that was relevant.

Here's the current save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9522 [^] . You should be able to find the ongoing fight. The weirder part of the whole thing was how the dwarves actively chased down the bear, which unfortunately I don't have a save demonstrating. Let me know if there's any problems; I haven't ever uploaded a save before.

(0029762)
tacomagic (reporter)
2014-08-28 21:28

I was seeing something that might be related to this with my hunters. Occasionally when a hunter ran out of ammo, instead of returning to the fortress to gather more arrows they would engage their prey in hand-to-hand combat. Often spending days wrestling themselves into exhaustion until either they were dead or the prey was.

(0032287)
Muumeh (reporter)
2015-02-25 09:40

I had 8 dwarf children climb up constructed walls (no roof) and gangbang an invading giantess heading towards my main entrance and started punching her in the head. (How on earth that is possible I have no clue). One of them actually managed to kill her.

(0032769)
Cosmop (reporter)
2015-06-08 17:19

I had a rather absurd run in with this myself.
I recently had a troll in my caverns heading towards the entrance to my fortress. In order to reach my entrance, he had to do some extensive climbing over the water at the bottom of the cavern, and was 2 z-levels above the z level of the entrance (though still a good distance away.) I had my speardwarves positioned to intercept him, and when he saw them he panicked, running around in circles 2 z levels above them on top of a tower cap. I left my military there in case he decided to come down (as there was no ramps or stairs leading to him, and the tower cap was surrounded by water - they couldn't reach him), and decided to wait him out. Then I got several cancellation messages as my butcher and some fishery workers were interrupted by seeing the troll (who was not in combat, but was panicking and running in circles) - however, instead of running as I expected them to, they ran to a nearby rock pillar, climbed up two z levels, and then climbed between rock pillars until they were within reach of the tower cap. They climbed onto the tower cap, and punched the troll in the head until it was unconscious. They continued to beat it (bare handed, unarmed) until a fishery worker who happened to be carrying an axe for wood cutting climbed up himself and finished the troll (4 pages of combat log later).

The annoying part was they refused to climb back down - in fact, several of them began to get thirsty and I had to build a path to get them back down. Strangely, even once I had built a path for them to get back down on, only one of the 5 dwarves who had climbed the tower cap took the path down - two of them climbed down the tower cap onto the path, and two of them climbed the long way across the rock pillars.

While it is possible this is related to an intended mechanic, if it is it seriously needs some tweaking. These were untrained, undisciplined non-military dwarves who saw a panicked troll who was very difficult to reach and not in combat, and responded by taking an absurd (and dangerous) climbing path over water to reach the troll and kill it with their bare hands.

Notes
(0029629) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-08-25 20:48	How did combat begin? Was a hunter involved?

(0029651) nonfish (reporter) 2014-08-26 08:57	No, the bear just wandered into my main hallway and promptly encountered a woodcutter and some other pleb. No one was hunting at the time.

(0029653) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-08-26 09:02 edited on: 2014-08-26 09:03	Did the woodcutter decide to attack the bear, or was it forced to defend him/herself?

(0029654) nonfish (reporter) 2014-08-26 09:08	I think so, but it happened too fast to be sure. After it started, however, dwarves keep noticing the fight, canceling their job ("Job canceled: Interrupted by bear"), then running to join the fight. At this point, I have 8 dwarves surrounding the bear either wrestling it or passed out from exhaustion

(0029656) Button (reporter) 2014-08-26 09:41	Did you happen to check the personality of the first dwarf to get into the fight?

(0029662) nonfish (reporter) 2014-08-26 10:14	I just checked: The very first dwarf to get in the fight is apparently "greatly disturbed by quiet and a peaceful existence," but at this point I have 8 other dwarves involved in the fight, including at least one who "values tranquility," I'm guessing that isn't the primary cause. It seems to me as if the dwarves instinct to flee is somehow triggering them to fight instead of run away as they always have in the past. Even if that is an intended reaction, something needs to be tweaked, since more than half my adult population (all civilians) is now wrestling or passed out from wrestling a wild bear...

(0029664) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-08-26 10:22	It seems reasonable that, if a fight has started, the other dwarves are trying to help out. It would be weirder if they just ignored their comrade getting mauled.

(0029667) smjjames (reporter) 2014-08-26 10:27	The one with dragging the horse is a bug though.

(0029668) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-08-26 10:30	Would 0005032 explain this?

(0029670) nonfish (reporter) 2014-08-26 10:39	No, I had no military established whatsoever (It's only fall of the first year). If the dwarves are helping out, they're doing a terrible job; I have a miner and a woodcutter both involved in the fight, but neither has unsheathed their weapons.

(0029671) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-08-26 10:45	Okay, but failing to unsheath weapons is a very different problem from getting in the wrong fight. It might not even qualify as a bug.

(0029672) nonfish (reporter) 2014-08-26 10:53	Yeah, I wasn't sure if that was relevant. Here's the current save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9522 [^] . You should be able to find the ongoing fight. The weirder part of the whole thing was how the dwarves actively chased down the bear, which unfortunately I don't have a save demonstrating. Let me know if there's any problems; I haven't ever uploaded a save before.

(0029762) tacomagic (reporter) 2014-08-28 21:28	I was seeing something that might be related to this with my hunters. Occasionally when a hunter ran out of ammo, instead of returning to the fortress to gather more arrows they would engage their prey in hand-to-hand combat. Often spending days wrestling themselves into exhaustion until either they were dead or the prey was.

(0032287) Muumeh (reporter) 2015-02-25 09:40	I had 8 dwarf children climb up constructed walls (no roof) and gangbang an invading giantess heading towards my main entrance and started punching her in the head. (How on earth that is possible I have no clue). One of them actually managed to kill her.

(0032769) Cosmop (reporter) 2015-06-08 17:19	I had a rather absurd run in with this myself. I recently had a troll in my caverns heading towards the entrance to my fortress. In order to reach my entrance, he had to do some extensive climbing over the water at the bottom of the cavern, and was 2 z-levels above the z level of the entrance (though still a good distance away.) I had my speardwarves positioned to intercept him, and when he saw them he panicked, running around in circles 2 z levels above them on top of a tower cap. I left my military there in case he decided to come down (as there was no ramps or stairs leading to him, and the tower cap was surrounded by water - they couldn't reach him), and decided to wait him out. Then I got several cancellation messages as my butcher and some fishery workers were interrupted by seeing the troll (who was not in combat, but was panicking and running in circles) - however, instead of running as I expected them to, they ran to a nearby rock pillar, climbed up two z levels, and then climbed between rock pillars until they were within reach of the tower cap. They climbed onto the tower cap, and punched the troll in the head until it was unconscious. They continued to beat it (bare handed, unarmed) until a fishery worker who happened to be carrying an axe for wood cutting climbed up himself and finished the troll (4 pages of combat log later). The annoying part was they refused to climb back down - in fact, several of them began to get thirsty and I had to build a path to get them back down. Strangely, even once I had built a path for them to get back down on, only one of the 5 dwarves who had climbed the tower cap took the path down - two of them climbed down the tower cap onto the path, and two of them climbed the long way across the rock pillars. While it is possible this is related to an intended mechanic, if it is it seriously needs some tweaking. These were untrained, undisciplined non-military dwarves who saw a panicked troll who was very difficult to reach and not in combat, and responded by taking an absurd (and dangerous) climbing path over water to reach the troll and kill it with their bare hands.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2014-08-25 18:52	nonfish	New Issue
2014-08-25 18:58	nonfish	Tag Attached: combat
2014-08-25 18:59	nonfish	Issue Monitored: nonfish
2014-08-25 18:59	nonfish	Issue End Monitor: nonfish
2014-08-25 20:48	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief
2014-08-25 20:48	Footkerchief	Status	new => needs feedback
2014-08-25 20:48	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0029629
2014-08-26 08:57	nonfish	Note Added: 0029651
2014-08-26 08:57	nonfish	Status	needs feedback => assigned
2014-08-26 09:02	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0029653
2014-08-26 09:03	Footkerchief	Note Edited: 0029653	View Revisions
2014-08-26 09:08	nonfish	Note Added: 0029654
2014-08-26 09:41	Button	Note Added: 0029656
2014-08-26 09:41	Button	Tag Attached: Intentional/Expected?
2014-08-26 10:14	nonfish	Note Added: 0029662
2014-08-26 10:22	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0029664
2014-08-26 10:27	smjjames	Note Added: 0029667
2014-08-26 10:30	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0029668
2014-08-26 10:39	nonfish	Note Added: 0029670
2014-08-26 10:45	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0029671
2014-08-26 10:53	nonfish	Note Added: 0029672
2014-08-28 21:28	tacomagic	Note Added: 0029762
2015-02-25 09:40	Muumeh	Note Added: 0032287
2015-06-08 17:19	Cosmop	Note Added: 0032769
2017-11-22 15:48	Dwarfu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0009695